MCF&G Steel Shoot on Friday

[VUPDblue]

Originally Posted by Mike Elzinga

Craig, no offense taken. However, if it is ONLY for fun, then they wouldnt be keeping score.

If you meant that it is only for fun to you, thats totally cool, but it is represented as a match, and some people went there expecting a match.

When shooters tell the scorekeeper that "my time was probably about X, so just write that down" and the scorekeeper actually does it, we have now ventured off the path of the fair and honest match.

Well, we all know by now that that was me. The timer would not pick up my .22 on the third string of one stage. When it picked me up on the first 2 strings, I was shooting like 2.3 and 2.5. I suggested to mark down a solid 3 on the third string since it wouldn't pick up and I KNOW I didn't slow down that much. It's not a matter of not being "fair and honest", it's a matter of getting at least something in the ballpark of reasonability down on paper so that I can have an overall time that is not drastically off due to a 0 or DQ. This match is very informal and it is not governed by any of the major shooting sports bodies. Everyone there competes only against theirselves. I'm sorry that you were led to believe that it was something more. I feel like FNS is very "fair and honest" to each individual shooter when pitted against himself. Now, when you go comparing shooters to each other, or even different squads to each other, it wouldn't fly in the "real world" of shooting sports.

[Mike Elzinga]

Nick, I wasnt talking about you at all.

I am most suprised at everyone condoning this stuff and the "thats how it is" attitude, rather than anyone saying "wow, maybe we could try to fix this"

[VUPDblue]

I agree that things could be run a little better. Actually, this program is still in it's infancy. It has exploded recently from a showing of around 20 shooters 6 months ago, to last time with over 60. I feel that FNS is, and should be a stepping stone for new shooters as well as a practice for serious shooters. It is intended to be a fun match, not necessarily a scored, serious full-blown USPSA type event.

[jimbo-indy]

FNS and the bowling pin match on 4th Sat of month are generally for fun. It's a way to get others into the sport. If you want the formal procedures, I suggest you attend the officially sanctioned matches that are available around Indiana. I was one who had never tried any event of this type and I got me deeper into steel and pins. There are lots of formal, high pressure meets around, having one for the newbe's and those who don't want the pressure is nice. The Friday Nite Steel group is only a little over a year old, starting from nothing and built by the generosity and sweat of a few members. If you want better timers, donate some. That's where most of the targets came from.Now that we are getting bigger, more money comes in and maybe we can afford to buy some things. However, I hope it never looses the friendly aspect and decend into cut-throat competition.
At the bowling pin meets, each meet is started with "Are there any new shooters here?" Those new to the sport can take a practice round so they are comfortable with the action. Same at Friday nite steel.
As for silencers, take it off if the timer can't react to it. I have spent many matches waiting while everyone else had to stop and wait so the gain could be turned up on one timer to sense a supressed 9 mm. Sort of like local rules in golf. Deal with it. Why does a "mouse gun" need a supressor anyway? If it didn't tear p the plates, I say, lets have a class for the big boys, .357 mag, 44 mag, etc.
I like wheel guns but you don't here me gripping about stags with 5-6 targets that require no misses or a long reload. Deal with it!
Flame off, had to vent.

[Mike Elzinga]

I suspect that my position is being misunderstood.

I also am very glad to find a low pressure situation for new shooters to enjoy. I also very much appreciate the efforts of a very friendly group of people to put on an entertaining event with a focus on self improvment and social interaction.

My contention however, if that if you are making a score sheet, you have a responibility to the attendees to see that it is accurate. If you dont wish to enforce a uniform set of rules, even ones you make up, then if is both unfair and dishonest to those that paid to attend.

I would be glad to donate timers, however it wasnt a timer issue. I was the first one there, and gladly built 2 stages by myself, and assisted on others. If I wanted to shoot against myself, or attend what has basically been described as a "group shoot" more than a match, I wouldnt have driven 2.5 hours, helped set up, would have gotten home before midnight.

If your gun doesnt set off a timer with any sense of reliablity, deal with it, and asked to have your scores removed. After all, you still got to shoot against yourself, without muddying the waters of the scoresheet.

I saw plenty of shooters accept "hits" on steel that werent even close, and RO's grant them that hit without question.

If you are taking money for a match fee, and putting out a scoresheet, you owe it to the paying participants to have as fair and accurate a scoresheet as is possible. This wasnt even close, and now it is being justified by certain people who may have benifitted from this lax attention to detail.

[bigcraig]

Mike, when I "finally" showed up I BS'd with Joey for a few minutes and then took over running the timer. I remember vividly telling a couple of shooters that they needed to go back to a missed target, the only time I took my eyes off the targets is when I had a ricochette hit me in the ribs, I wimpered like a little girl. I don't recall giving anybody a "gimme" hit or telling the scorekeeper an incorrect time.

I must admit that "our" squads antics have more than likely affected our seriousness of the match. I can also see your point that if scores are to be kept, then rules and procedures need to be followed correctly. But as far as your claims of completely missed targets, I don't buy it, sorry.

Now, all that being said, Mike I can appreciate the fact that you drove so far to attend this match and expected something a bit better. (To note, we had a gentleman drive all the way from Michigan to shoot this match, and he thoroughly enjoyed himself.) But please remember, we are all just a bunch of slack jawed, booger eatin morons, well armed morons, but morons nonetheless.

To finish, as far as the use of suppressors and timer issues, Nick and I will try and solve that problem, but be advised I will continue to run a suppressor on my 9mm AR (once I fix it), as it is the BEST compensator that you can use, I highly recommend them.

[jimbo-indy]

My appologies for the rant of yesterday ( it's been a stressful week at work). I agree with Mike that if scores are kept, they should be as accrurate as possible so that the shooter has some reliable data for evaluation of his (her) performance. Personally, I have had what I thought were hits counted as misses and several questionable hits counted. Some of this was the result of downloaded ammo (38 wadcutters) that didn't have the needed power on some of the targets. Next time use full loads. On other instances, I have seen the stage re-shot due to some problems as previously described.
Friday Nite Steel is, or should be, more than a fun shoot but not up to sanctioned match standards. Since it is run by average people, there will be some variation from group to group. As a MCF&G member, I apologize if you thought you were attending a sanctioned type match. Thank you for making the long trip to attend. We hope you will return and enjoy the sport with us. As we go forward, maybe we can learn ways to be more accurate in scoring while still being loose enough for all to enjoy the sport and learn.
I'm going to take my pills now.

[Mike Elzinga]

Craig~ I didnt mean to insinute that you knowingly gave a "gimme" time or hit. However, if you dont think that a miss was ever scored a hit, you are kidding yourself. That happens in Steel matches, to the best of RO's and that is just the breaks of shooting steel that doesnt fall. I saw a number of runs where I wondered if anyone was even watching the shots, and I dont just mean in connection with our squad.

As far as suppressors, you can run whatever set up you want, but if it doesnt reliably set off a timer, you are doing a disservice to the other shooters. Just because a timer picks up A shot, doesnt mean it got EVERY shot. Also, if it takes 10 runs to get 3 that register, then you just got 7 practice runs that no one else got.

As for antics, I am as much to blame as anyone else. And I never called anyone a booger eating moron, and I surely hope that you dont think that is my opinion of the people in attendance.

Jimbo~ No problem, sorry if I said anything to offend, I only kept adding to this thread because I was asked.

As a side note, I would recommend that anyone involved stop using the argument that "it isnt a sanctioned match". I have been fortunate to shoot a wide variety of matches, of different levels of importance, in a variety of locales and from that experience I have noticed a few trends. If you run a match, any match, and label it a match, you need some semblence of consistency. If you dont take a scoresheet seriously, then all the people who just shoot "against themselves" wont have any idea what they actually did right or wrong. I myself am NOT a "hardcore" competitor, but their are simple improvements than can be made, and in the end, who doesnt wants to see progression? Tighten up a couple things, and you will have an excellent match that any shooter, of whatever skill level will enjoy.

[rhino]

Perhaps Friday Night Steel needs a policy for watching for hits/misses (assuming they don't have one already). The RO's attention should be focused on the shooter and his gun, not on the targets. In cowboy matches, the squad ("posse") takes group responsibility for this.

[bigcraig]

Originally Posted by rhino

Perhaps Friday Night Steel needs a policy for watching for hits/misses (assuming they don't have one already). The RO's attention should be focused on the shooter and his gun, not on the targets. In cowboy matches, the squad ("posse") takes group responsibility for this.

I agree.