Shame on me and shame on you!... - Page 2

melensdad · 06-04-2008

GENERATORS -- Because I am now receiving PMs about this, I figured I would answer it here and save some typing. These are my opinions, based on my experiences dealing with several power outages ranging between 24 hours and 8 days during -20 degree weather, your opinions may be different.

All generators should be connected to your house by a real electrician with an isolation/cutover switch. I did not install my own generator. In a pinch I could, and I have on one occasion, backfeed a generator into my house panel through the AC circuit, but that is not a good plan, it just works in a pinch with a small generator.

My generator was purchased about 15 years ago, so it was before it was common to have stand alone back up power systems like are commonly sold today. There is some good and some bad to the new self-contained generator systems. The current self contained systems auto start and auto exercise themselves, they are quiet, they are weatherproof and they do work nicely. They typically have an automatic cutover and isolation system as well. If you can afford it, it is the best system to go with as long as you have a steady supply of fuel. Most work on natural gas or propane. The propane units require that you have your own propane tank, and they require a lot of propane to operate so don't even begin to think you can use 20#, 40# or even 100# cylinders to operate a large back up generator with those. You need the great big (size of a small car) cylinder in your yard for a propane generator to run for any length of time. Small cylinders may run your generator for a few hours or even for a day if you stretch it out or have larger cylinders.

My generator is a 12,000 watt tri-fuel generator. I have it connected up to the natural gas line. I can switch it to propane tanks but have no illusion that I can survive a week on propane, I can probably keep the food from rotting in the freezers for several days with propane but not much beyond that. It also will use gasoline, runs about 7 hours on 5 gallons of gas.

A 12,000 watt generator is NOT enough to run my whole house. In fact I doubt it would even run my air conditioner. It will power my refrigerators and freezer, pump my water, keep the ceiling fans spinning, run the furnace and power the lights in most of our rooms.

It should also be pointed out that a TRI-FUEL generator does not put out FULL WATTAGE with all 3 fuels. These things are rated for gasoline, but propane generates LESS power, and N.G. generates EVEN LESS than propane. So I get 12,000 on gasoline, 10,800 watts on propane, and 9600 watts on natural gas. YOU MUST SIZE YOUR GENERATOR to your loads.

I live in a large house (4000+sq ft) that is pretty energy efficient. We use a lot of compact florescent bulbs which use about 20-to-25% of the amount of energy as a regular light bulb. It is well insulated. So 9600 watts will keep our furnace running, keep us comfortable, even keep the big screen TV running. But we are careful when we shower because the draw from the well pump can dim the lights if we have everything else running. Figure out what you NEED to stay warm in the worst weather you can imagine. Calculate your electrical draw from that point and then start to add in other uses as above your "needs" to see what size generator you will have to buy.

For example, if you want to power your refrigerator, furnace, and your master bedroom lights, TV, etc, plus the lights in 1 bathroom, all you have to do is look at the electrical draw for each of those things. Your bathroom is probably on 1 circuit, probably has a couple light bulbs and a fan. Read the wattage on each bulb, read the wattage on the fan. That is the amount of power you need to supply to the bathroom. Do the same for the bedroom. Do the same for the furnace and the kitchen but . . . with the refrigerator and the furnace you are dealing with pumps/fans and they have a greater 'start up' draw so you need to factor those in to your power needs. Again, look at the appliance and it will typically tell you what the requirements are in watts.

It is that simple, just add everything up. I'd suggest getting a generator 10% larger than what you calculate. So if you need 4000 Watts to cover your needs, then get a generator that will run 4400 watts. And when I say run, I am not talking "peak" power, I am talking running power.

In my case we added up all the 'need' things like the well, the 2 refrigerators, the freezer, the furnace fan, etc. We then selected rooms where we would spend the most time so the master bedroom suite is fully powered, the kitchen is fully powered, the occupied bedrooms, etc. We also powered hallway/stairwell lights, etc. But we did NOT power the formal dining room or the outdoor flood lights or other places that were NOT critical for safety or needed for comfort.

The next step is to have all your generator powered circuits moved into a different breaker box. So you will have your main power from the utility coming into your main breaker box -- next to it will be the cutover/isolation box -- next to that will be your generator breaker box. All the circuits supplied with power by your generator will be in that new generator breaker box. If you get a really big generator that is capable of running your whole house then you can eliminate the generator breaker box and simply use the main box with a cutover/isolation box.

You NEED a cutover/isolation box. That must be installed by someone who knows what the heck they are doing!!! It prevents the generator you are running from send power out to the 'grid' and killing a lineman who is trying to repair the power line.

In my case, because my generator is not an automatic unit, when we have a power failure I have to grab a flashlight and walk downstairs. There is 1 switch on my isolation/cutover box that needs to be flipped. I then walk out to my garage where my generator is and I turn the valve on my natural gas line, and then I turn the key on my generator to start it up. The entire process takes about 2 minutes. I have printed instructions on the generator for my wife. I also have printed instruction on the cutover/isolation box for my wife. Those are in place in case I am not home.

If I was buying a generator today, I would probably buy a 20,000 watt auto start unit. I would get a liquid cooled 1800 rpm unit. I would get an "ultra quiet" unit because these things make a lot of noise! It would likely cost about $15,000. A 15,000 watt unit that I priced not too long ago was just about $9500.00. A similar 15,000 watt unit that does not have all the automatic features, runs a bit louder, could save about $500. Those are prices are NOT installed prices.

BUT DON'T LET THOSE PRICES SCARE YOU because you can get a 5000 watt portable generator that runs on gas, get a cutover/isolation box and have it all installed for under $1500. Don't expect it to run your whole house, but it will keep you warm in the winter and keep your food from rotting. It might even keep your TV running too.

bwframe · 06-04-2008

Thanks for the answers to questions on generators that had me curios. Still sounds like, even if you had an elaborate setup, fuel is gonna bite you pretty quickly in a situation that lasts 2 weeks or longer. That is not to mention the always rising fuel costs and how efficient it is compared with what comes through the electric lines to your house normally.

melensdad · 06-04-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwframe

Thanks for the answers to questions on generators that had me curios. Still sounds like, even if you had an elaborate setup, fuel is gonna bite you pretty quickly in a situation that lasts 2 weeks or longer. That is not to mention the always rising fuel costs and how efficient it is compared with what comes through the electric lines to your house normally.

The utility company will always be cheaper. These home generators are BACK UP generators, not primary power generators. The problem with the utility company is that, at least in many areas, electricity is NOT very reliable. Our homes are generally heavily dependent upon electricity so if you heat your house with a gas/forced air system and lose electric power, you don't have a fan to distribute the heat. If you heat your house with hot water radiant floor heat or baseboard radiator heat you don't have a pump to move the water without electricity. The generator is there to keep you alive and keep your pipes from freezing in the winter. Anything beyond those two things is luxury. I was serious when I said we were out of power for 8 days with temps during the first 5 of those days reaching -20 degrees (F). And we were snowed/iced in for the first 3.5 days. So without a generator we literally could have frozen to death inside our home. This happened right here in Indiana in my current home. It can happen here.

RogerB · 06-04-2008

Thanks for posting the info Bob... defintely answered some of my questions and gave me some ideas as well.

melensdad · 06-04-2008

Oh, one more thing. If you use a portable generator for back up power and intend to leave it outside while running, make sure you pour a small concrete pad with one (or preferably 2) large stainless steel eye bolts or U bolts buried securely into the concrete. That will allow you to use HEAVY cable to secure your generator to the pad. Amazingly people set generators outside during power failures and those generators GET STOLEN. They are easy to steal by anyone with a pick up truck and a couple guys, it only takes a couple seconds to disconnect them and a couple more seconds for a couple of men to carry them into the back of a waiting pick up truck.

flagtag · 06-04-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by karlsgunbunker

You can't prep for a Tornado, Unless you have an Underground shelter. My parents in texas had one installed in their new house several years ago.

I've been prepping since Jan 01 and if a Tornado hits the house my preps are toast.

I'm probably ok for a near miss, but if I get a dirtect hit, my MRE's are going to be in Ohio.

I can just see some Buckeye watching buckets of wheat, Rice, beans and pasta fall into his front yard from a clear blue sky.

Underground shelters would be great for storms like tornados and/or high winds, BUT what about flooding? There is a need to prepare for as many disasters as possible.
Hopefully, one would be able to "spread out" supplies in other areas that one could get to in case one area is destroyed. Unfortunately, not everyone can do that. A B.O.B. would help until one could get home.

RogerB · 06-05-2008

here's a link I found helpful on figuring out what would fit your needs.

Standby Generators - How to Pick the Perfect Standby Generator @ ElectricGeneratorsDirect.com - Home Standby Generator, Emergency Standby Generator, Backup Standby Generator, Emergency Home Standby Generator

Worth a look IMHO...

ar15_dude · 06-06-2008

This thread kind of got hijacked into a generator discussion...

BW's original points were: 1) your home/prep stash may be destroyed or inaccessible, 2) recent tornado and earthquake remind us that S can indeed HTF.

Since point 2) is a given, I'll comment on point 1).
The answer is not to stash all your preps in one place. Main stash in your home, spread around some (basement, closet, garage). Mini stashes in your vehicle, and at a trusted friend or relatives house. By spreading stuff around, the odds of losing it all are reduced, the odds of you being near some of it are increased. I even have a mini stash at work: a few bottled waters, granola, leatherman tool, etc. The stashes can consist of whatever you want, but priorites should be around shelter/clothing, water, light, communication, food, tools/weapons. This seems to be the order of urgency.

It has to be a TRUSTED friend/relative to leave a mini stash with them..."don't open that heavy footlocker unless I tell you or its TEOTWAWKI".

Bigum1969 · 06-08-2008

You really need to make sure you've got disaster supplies in all the places that you could be when something happens. Your house is obvious, but your car is almost as important as well as work. Be prepared in all three places.

Royal-1 · 06-09-2008

Be very selective of what you put in your vehicle.

High temps
Limited security
They have always been a good target for thieves

MRE's will not last long in high temps, and water get nasty in the thin plastic drinking bottles.

How many times have you heard a car alarm go off and took off running to see if you could help stop a thief?

If they don't just steal your car, then the trunk is also an easy target at any shopping area.

Gear would be good to keep in a car: Rain gear, walking shoes/boots, simple tools, a blanket, first aid items. Stuff that if someone does pop your trunk they will just toss out of the way looking for the good stuff.

In short don't keep an AR in your trunk with 6 full magazines, that is unless you have an incredible way to hide them. Even then I'm not so impressed with the idea of keeping ammo in a hot car for the long term.

06-04-2008	#11 (permalink)
melensdad Jerk in a Hawaiian shirt. So what about it? Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lake County / West Creek Posts: 1,378	GENERATORS -- Because I am now receiving PMs about this, I figured I would answer it here and save some typing. These are my opinions, based on my experiences dealing with several power outages ranging between 24 hours and 8 days during -20 degree weather, your opinions may be different. All generators should be connected to your house by a real electrician with an isolation/cutover switch. I did not install my own generator. In a pinch I could, and I have on one occasion, backfeed a generator into my house panel through the AC circuit, but that is not a good plan, it just works in a pinch with a small generator. My generator was purchased about 15 years ago, so it was before it was common to have stand alone back up power systems like are commonly sold today. There is some good and some bad to the new self-contained generator systems. The current self contained systems auto start and auto exercise themselves, they are quiet, they are weatherproof and they do work nicely. They typically have an automatic cutover and isolation system as well. If you can afford it, it is the best system to go with as long as you have a steady supply of fuel. Most work on natural gas or propane. The propane units require that you have your own propane tank, and they require a lot of propane to operate so don't even begin to think you can use 20#, 40# or even 100# cylinders to operate a large back up generator with those. You need the great big (size of a small car) cylinder in your yard for a propane generator to run for any length of time. Small cylinders may run your generator for a few hours or even for a day if you stretch it out or have larger cylinders. My generator is a 12,000 watt tri-fuel generator. I have it connected up to the natural gas line. I can switch it to propane tanks but have no illusion that I can survive a week on propane, I can probably keep the food from rotting in the freezers for several days with propane but not much beyond that. It also will use gasoline, runs about 7 hours on 5 gallons of gas. A 12,000 watt generator is NOT enough to run my whole house. In fact I doubt it would even run my air conditioner. It will power my refrigerators and freezer, pump my water, keep the ceiling fans spinning, run the furnace and power the lights in most of our rooms. It should also be pointed out that a TRI-FUEL generator does not put out FULL WATTAGE with all 3 fuels. These things are rated for gasoline, but propane generates LESS power, and N.G. generates EVEN LESS than propane. So I get 12,000 on gasoline, 10,800 watts on propane, and 9600 watts on natural gas. YOU MUST SIZE YOUR GENERATOR to your loads. I live in a large house (4000+sq ft) that is pretty energy efficient. We use a lot of compact florescent bulbs which use about 20-to-25% of the amount of energy as a regular light bulb. It is well insulated. So 9600 watts will keep our furnace running, keep us comfortable, even keep the big screen TV running. But we are careful when we shower because the draw from the well pump can dim the lights if we have everything else running. Figure out what you NEED to stay warm in the worst weather you can imagine. Calculate your electrical draw from that point and then start to add in other uses as above your "needs" to see what size generator you will have to buy. For example, if you want to power your refrigerator, furnace, and your master bedroom lights, TV, etc, plus the lights in 1 bathroom, all you have to do is look at the electrical draw for each of those things. Your bathroom is probably on 1 circuit, probably has a couple light bulbs and a fan. Read the wattage on each bulb, read the wattage on the fan. That is the amount of power you need to supply to the bathroom. Do the same for the bedroom. Do the same for the furnace and the kitchen but . . . with the refrigerator and the furnace you are dealing with pumps/fans and they have a greater 'start up' draw so you need to factor those in to your power needs. Again, look at the appliance and it will typically tell you what the requirements are in watts. It is that simple, just add everything up. I'd suggest getting a generator 10% larger than what you calculate. So if you need 4000 Watts to cover your needs, then get a generator that will run 4400 watts. And when I say run, I am not talking "peak" power, I am talking running power. In my case we added up all the 'need' things like the well, the 2 refrigerators, the freezer, the furnace fan, etc. We then selected rooms where we would spend the most time so the master bedroom suite is fully powered, the kitchen is fully powered, the occupied bedrooms, etc. We also powered hallway/stairwell lights, etc. But we did NOT power the formal dining room or the outdoor flood lights or other places that were NOT critical for safety or needed for comfort. The next step is to have all your generator powered circuits moved into a different breaker box. So you will have your main power from the utility coming into your main breaker box -- next to it will be the cutover/isolation box -- next to that will be your generator breaker box. All the circuits supplied with power by your generator will be in that new generator breaker box. If you get a really big generator that is capable of running your whole house then you can eliminate the generator breaker box and simply use the main box with a cutover/isolation box. You NEED a cutover/isolation box. That must be installed by someone who knows what the heck they are doing!!! It prevents the generator you are running from send power out to the 'grid' and killing a lineman who is trying to repair the power line. In my case, because my generator is not an automatic unit, when we have a power failure I have to grab a flashlight and walk downstairs. There is 1 switch on my isolation/cutover box that needs to be flipped. I then walk out to my garage where my generator is and I turn the valve on my natural gas line, and then I turn the key on my generator to start it up. The entire process takes about 2 minutes. I have printed instructions on the generator for my wife. I also have printed instruction on the cutover/isolation box for my wife. Those are in place in case I am not home. If I was buying a generator today, I would probably buy a 20,000 watt auto start unit. I would get a liquid cooled 1800 rpm unit. I would get an "ultra quiet" unit because these things make a lot of noise! It would likely cost about $15,000. A 15,000 watt unit that I priced not too long ago was just about $9500.00. A similar 15,000 watt unit that does not have all the automatic features, runs a bit louder, could save about $500. Those are prices are NOT installed prices. BUT DON'T LET THOSE PRICES SCARE YOU because you can get a 5000 watt portable generator that runs on gas, get a cutover/isolation box and have it all installed for under $1500. Don't expect it to run your whole house, but it will keep you warm in the winter and keep your food from rotting. It might even keep your TV running too. __________________ Father John Corapi: "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out!" Visit my Antique Snowcat, political, gun & general discussions (with this lawsuit) I'd like to think that I've been more successful at saving lives than Roe V Wade. -- Dick Anthony Heller, 3/18/08 on the steps of the SCOTUS after leaving the Heller v DC Gun Ban hearing.

06-04-2008	#12 (permalink)
bwframe BullShooter Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Unionville, IN Posts: 1,152	Thanks for the answers to questions on generators that had me curios. Still sounds like, even if you had an elaborate setup, fuel is gonna bite you pretty quickly in a situation that lasts 2 weeks or longer. That is not to mention the always rising fuel costs and how efficient it is compared with what comes through the electric lines to your house normally. __________________

06-04-2008	#15 (permalink)
melensdad Jerk in a Hawaiian shirt. So what about it? Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lake County / West Creek Posts: 1,378	Oh, one more thing. If you use a portable generator for back up power and intend to leave it outside while running, make sure you pour a small concrete pad with one (or preferably 2) large stainless steel eye bolts or U bolts buried securely into the concrete. That will allow you to use HEAVY cable to secure your generator to the pad. Amazingly people set generators outside during power failures and those generators GET STOLEN. They are easy to steal by anyone with a pick up truck and a couple guys, it only takes a couple seconds to disconnect them and a couple more seconds for a couple of men to carry them into the back of a waiting pick up truck. __________________ Father John Corapi: "Don't be so open minded that your brains fall out!" Visit my Antique Snowcat, political, gun & general discussions (with this lawsuit) I'd like to think that I've been more successful at saving lives than Roe V Wade. -- Dick Anthony Heller, 3/18/08 on the steps of the SCOTUS after leaving the Heller v DC Gun Ban hearing.

06-08-2008	#19 (permalink)
Bigum1969 Paranoid and Currently Being Chased Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: SW Indiana Posts: 1,578	You really need to make sure you've got disaster supplies in all the places that you could be when something happens. Your house is obvious, but your car is almost as important as well as work. Be prepared in all three places. __________________ Audentes fortuna juvet

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06-04-2008	#14 (permalink)
RogerB Something witty goes here... Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: New Palestine Posts: 833	Thanks for posting the info Bob... defintely answered some of my questions and gave me some ideas as well.

06-05-2008	#17 (permalink)
RogerB Something witty goes here... Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: New Palestine Posts: 833	here's a link I found helpful on figuring out what would fit your needs. Standby Generators - How to Pick the Perfect Standby Generator @ ElectricGeneratorsDirect.com - Home Standby Generator, Emergency Standby Generator, Backup Standby Generator, Emergency Home Standby Generator Worth a look IMHO...

06-06-2008	#18 (permalink)
ar15_dude Plinker Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 63	This thread kind of got hijacked into a generator discussion... BW's original points were: 1) your home/prep stash may be destroyed or inaccessible, 2) recent tornado and earthquake remind us that S can indeed HTF. Since point 2) is a given, I'll comment on point 1). The answer is not to stash all your preps in one place. Main stash in your home, spread around some (basement, closet, garage). Mini stashes in your vehicle, and at a trusted friend or relatives house. By spreading stuff around, the odds of losing it all are reduced, the odds of you being near some of it are increased. I even have a mini stash at work: a few bottled waters, granola, leatherman tool, etc. The stashes can consist of whatever you want, but priorites should be around shelter/clothing, water, light, communication, food, tools/weapons. This seems to be the order of urgency. It has to be a TRUSTED friend/relative to leave a mini stash with them..."don't open that heavy footlocker unless I tell you or its TEOTWAWKI".

06-09-2008	#20 (permalink)
Royal-1 Plinker Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Noblesville Posts: 76	Be very selective of what you put in your vehicle. High temps Limited security They have always been a good target for thieves MRE's will not last long in high temps, and water get nasty in the thin plastic drinking bottles. How many times have you heard a car alarm go off and took off running to see if you could help stop a thief? If they don't just steal your car, then the trunk is also an easy target at any shopping area. Gear would be good to keep in a car: Rain gear, walking shoes/boots, simple tools, a blanket, first aid items. Stuff that if someone does pop your trunk they will just toss out of the way looking for the good stuff. In short don't keep an AR in your trunk with 6 full magazines, that is unless you have an incredible way to hide them. Even then I'm not so impressed with the idea of keeping ammo in a hot car for the long term.