Cutting the crap

[foszoe]

You default to your training.

I call B.S.

We all train with eyes and ears.

The biggest contributor to my shooting errors is a flinch.

With ears on, I can overcome it IF

I shoot a box or 2 a week.

Convince me that you default to your training.

I think you will default to less because of the sudden noise impact.

 

[SSGSAD]

I don't know your background, or experience, but as for me, when "things happen" I go "automatic", and just do things .....

Usually from my Military experience ..... That stuff is INGRAINED into you !!!!!

 

[K_W]

These days I rarely shoot because I'd rather bike, but I do not flinch from the sound except for the 12 which kicks the crap out of my shoulder. When I mountain bike I don't think about how to recover from a slide I just do it subconsciously because of how many time I've preformed the required motions I don't have to think about it. Same goes for shooting if you've done the motions enough times it's no longer necessary to think about it

 

[lovemachine]

These days I rarely shoot because I'd rather bike, but I do not flinch from the sound except for the 12 which kicks the crap out of my shoulder. When I mountain bike I don't think about how to recover from a slide I just do it subconsciously because of how many time I've preformed the required motions I don't have to think about it. Same goes for shooting if you've done the motions enough times it's no longer necessary to think about it

I have nothing to contribute to this thread except to say mtn biking is awesome.

 

[daddyusmaximus]

I don't know your background, or experience, but as for me, when "things happen" I go "automatic", and just do things .....

Usually from my Military experience ..... That stuff is INGRAINED into you !!!!!

Yes. Ingrained into you through training...

 

[hammerd13]

OP,

Give "On Combat" by Dave Grossman a read. Your senses change a bid when you're under the significant stress you might encounter during a serious confrontation. In fact...often times folks don't recall hearing any of their own shots, but were still be able to pick out audible subtleties surrounding them during the action. The body and psyche is an amazing thing for sure and not many people know it better than Grossman. Realistic training is quite important, as it relates to your level of performance you will find.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

You default to your training.

....

I think you will default to less because of the sudden noise impact.

• Auditory Exclusion: Which is simply a temporary loss of hearing caused by a high stress incident. Officers have reported gun shots sounding like a faint pop. Just be prepared so you know what it is when it’s happening. Studies have shown that 85% of officers involved in a critical incident experience auditory exclusion to some degree. There are no known training methods to help overcome auditory exclusion.

source: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/2014...fects-of-stress-as-it-effects-law-enforcement

Noise isn't as much of an issue as you'd think, as your brain stops processing sound "normally" when you're in a SHTF situation.

 

[daddyusmaximus]

OP,

Give "On Combat" by Dave Grossman a read. Your senses change a bid when you're under the significant stress you might encounter during a serious confrontation. In fact...often times folks don't recall hearing any of their own shots, but were still be able to pick out audible subtleties surrounding them during the action. The body and psyche is an amazing thing for sure and not many people know it better than Grossman. Realistic training is quite important, as it relates to your level of performance you will find.

Try "On Killing" too. (also by Grossman)

My VA lady had me read both. It's not the same as being there, but he does a good job of explaining it.

 

[foszoe]

On killing is on my reading list.
Finishing gift of fear.

Have you guys experienced auditory exclusion?

Is it a physical or psychological phenomena? Both? I.e. does the person experience hearing loss at the same rate?

 

[Tactically Fat]

I have experienced auditory exclusion. It is a psychological phenomenon in the sense that there's nothing "mechanical" within your body that prohibits. The sound/pressure waves are still impacting the ear - but it's not processed. I don't know, however, where along the nerve connection the "disconnect" occurs. In the sense of nerve signal transmission there is still a physical component to it.

In my case, I heard the shot - but it was not LOUD.

This was not any kind of gunfight. This was an absolutely horribly stupid stupid stupid negligent discharge on my part...years and years and years ago.

If you have an "OhCrapINeedMyGunRightThisAbsoluteSecond" moment - you're not gonna hear your shots and the recoil isn't going to bother you. Adrenaline is a hell of a drug.

 

[churchmouse]

On killing is on my reading list.
Finishing gift of fear.

Have you guys experienced auditory exclusion?

Is it a physical or psychological phenomena? Both? I.e. does the person experience hearing loss at the same rate?

Yes. The body has a way of blocking out the sound in a traumatic situation.
Stacked up the Midget (Race car) 2 times and never really heard the impacts. I could hear the engine revving to mars but the impact sounds were not harsh.
The people in the pits said it was harsh. I did not really hear that. I do remember flying through the air (in the car) and it got very quite even with the carnage around me. Also the slow motion effect kicked in.

 

[output]

In a book by Rorke Denver called "worth Dying for" or "Damn Few" (can't remember which one, the former Navy Seal goes into a brief summary of what he believes happens to the human body when it encounters a dangerous confrontation, basically a gun fight.

He uses a Lion as an example. When a lion roars it can be heard 5 miles away...it is deafeningly loud yet the lion does not lose its hearing. The author claims the human body, much like the lion has a natural tendency to protect itself, and does not process the sound because of the heightened state of adrenaline and every other physiological mechanism that is at play within the body... Rorke talks about not hearing the sound of gunfire while he was in firefights and gun fighting and claims no hearing loss after a career in the seal teams.

There is no doubt that training makes you better. This is why athletes, police, and military spent so much more time practicing that actually "doing" whatever it is they do. How much better depends on the quality of training, practice, and other factors. The more you do something, generally the better you become at doing it.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Have you guys experienced auditory exclusion?

Is it a physical or psychological phenomena? Both? I.e. does the person experience hearing loss at the same rate?

Yes, and it's psychological. Your brain is real busy and just doesn't bother to process sound normally so it can do things related to survival. You aren't completely deaf, you're just processing sound very differently. For example, hearing the buffer tube spring work in the AR but not hearing the shots, hearing someone screaming but not processing the words so it's just noise, that sort of thing. I can't answer the hearing loss question.

 

[foszoe]

Thanks guys. Wish the rep system was working.

 

[tjh88]

I don't recall ever hearing a gunshot while deer hunting. I know it's there but not loud. Thats just buck fever and that deer is not even shooting back.

 

[rhino]

In a book by Rorke Denver called "worth Dying for" or "Damn Few" (can't remember which one, the former Navy Seal goes into a brief summary of what he believes happens to the human body when it encounters a dangerous confrontation, basically a gun fight.

He uses a Lion as an example. When a lion roars it can be heard 5 miles away...it is deafeningly loud yet the lion does not lose its hearing. The author claims the human body, much like the lion has a natural tendency to protect itself, and does not process the sound because of the heightened state of adrenaline and every other physiological mechanism that is at play within the body... Rorke talks about not hearing the sound of gunfire while he was in firefights and gun fighting and claims no hearing loss after a career in the seal teams.

There is no doubt that training makes you better. This is why athletes, police, and military spent so much more time practicing that actually "doing" whatever it is they do. How much better depends on the quality of training, practice, and other factors. The more you do something, generally the better you become at doing it.

The sound waves still have energy and are still doing work on ear parts that getting damaged. He may not perceive any loss of hearing yet, or he may just be lucky. If he's relatively young, check with him when he's in his 60s or 70s. The damage will be readily apparent then.

 

[sporter]

yawn.

 

[RobbyMaQ]

this auditory inclusion thing weird. I may have experienced this during my first skydive. I noted how loud the single engine plane was while riding in it, but when I proceeded to climb outside and hang off the strut, the prop blast was so harsh, and I was so focused on my hands engaging the strut that I barely heard the engine any longer... was like a slow motion movie with senses overwhelmed. kinda cool

 

[GunSense LLC]

This thread seems to have went down a rabbit trail. It seems the original discussion was about flinching, and somehow that got turned around to auditory exclusion in a fight will prevent flinches.

It doesn't work that way. The "bang" is produced when the bullet leaves the muzzle and the gas rapidly leaves the barrel. The gun is quiet (except for the faint click of the sear releasing) up until the bullet leaves the muzzle. At that point, the gun can no longer affect the bullet trajectory. It is not the noise that is causing a flinch, as the noise occurs too late.

When you shoot, the front site lifts due to recoil. You brain learns after many repetitions that this will be the case, so it learns that if it causes the hands to push down a little just before the trigger releases the sear, the effects of recoil are reduced or eliminated, at the expense of the trajectory of the bullet. Worse, the brain knows if the gun is loaded or not. So, if you do a lot of dry fire practice, the brain knows that the gun is unloaded and will not recoil, and as such doesn't flinch. The only reliable way to test for a flinch is a ball and dummy drill where a partner loads a magazine and randomly inserts dummy ammo. Since your brain knows this is live ammo, and confirmed by the recoil on most shots, when the dummy round is encountered, the gun will dip.

I don't know that a flinch will go away just because you are under a stress situation. If you flinch, then your brain has built the neural pathways on how to press a trigger, and part of that pathway is causing the hands to press down to resist recoil.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This thread seems to have went down a rabbit trail. It seems the original discussion was about flinching, and somehow that got turned around to auditory exclusion in a fight will prevent flinches.

The OP was pretty clear he expected more noise to increase flinch response, and would thus perform worse in an actual gun fight due to lack of hearing protection.

We all train with eyes and ears.

The biggest contributor to my shooting errors is a flinch.

With ears on, I can overcome it IF

I shoot a box or 2 a week.

Convince me that you default to your training.

I think you will default to less because of the sudden noise impact.

It is not the noise that is causing a flinch, as the noise occurs too late.

If you include the 'anticipation of noise' then noise does influence flinch in a training environment, especially if it's approaching painful levels. Everyone has anticipation issues, to a greater or lesser degree and more or less often. Loud noise will exacerbate that...which is why I double up on hearing protection when firing magnums at indoor ranges.