The Pink Elephant (T.R. Video)

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • VUPDblue

    Silencers Have NEVER Been Illegal !
    Rating - 100%
    25   0   1
    Mar 20, 2008
    12,885
    83
    Franklin Township
    So this video sparked a whole new 360* training debate. I managed to save this file after someone else hosted it. I didn't want to post it in Shay's thread because this is not what he's specifically referring to, but it is evident that the membership here wants to see the thing. Here it is, enjoy, and discuss to your little hearts' content!

     

    Coach

    Grandmaster
    Emeritus
    Trainer Supporter
    Local Business Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 15, 2008
    13,411
    48
    Coatesville
    Darwin Awards

    One of those guys shoots that camera man and this video will play on the news around the world and every responsible gun owner in this country will be painted in the same stroke by the same brush, and it will say dumbass.

    Irresponsible and stupid and without educational purpose. They make remote cameras and tripods get one. This video and this practice hurts the gun owning cause.

    I am amazed by the number of people on here that can rationalize this situation as ok. mercy.
     

    Shay

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    18   0   0
    Mar 17, 2008
    2,364
    48
    Indy
    Having been in both the photographer's and the shooter's position many times, I do not have a problem with what I see here. I no longer work for Tactical Response, but I did not leave because of drills such as these. Looking back, I worked there for 7 years BECAUSE of their willingness to offer students drills such as these. They will do whatever is necessary to prepare students to fight.

    As for downrange drills there are benefits on both sides of the gun.

    For the shooter it reinforces the real meaning behind the 4 firearm safety rules. It breaks the fallacy of range rules dictating 180 degree gun handling. You see a concentration on the fundamentals and crisp gun handling. There is also a focus, like no other, on shooting accurately.

    The person beside the target initially feels a high degree of stress that diminishes with the exposure to the general orientation of a pistol (or rifle) pointed in their direction and the gas from muzzle blasts. In the beginning it's very disconcerting. In this case, the benefit is minimal because the person "down range" is a combat vet who has been shot at many, many times. I would bet his heart rate didn't rise 5 BPM.

    I understand that what I'm writing will not be popular and that I'm going to be in an extreme minority by not decrying the "danger" and "stupidity" of what is shown in the video. So be it.

    Ultimately, defensive shooting training is supposed to prepare you mentally and physically to shoot someone that needs to be shot while at the same time not shooting people who don't need to be shot.

    Ask yourself these questions:
    Do you believe in real accountability for every round you fire?
    Do you train with minimal stress or do you push yourself outside your comfort zone?
    Will it be stressful the first time someone shoots in your direction?
    Do you think you could shoot someone in a crowded shopping mall?
     

    riverman67

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Jan 16, 2009
    4,105
    48
    Morgan County
    I'm going to watch it again because I don't believe it.
    There are risks involved in training with firearms and they can be managed witj common sense and attention to detail.This serves no purpose that I can see
     

    Chefcook

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Oct 20, 2008
    4,163
    36
    Raccoon City
    Having been in both the photographer's and the shooter's position many times, I do not have a problem with what I see here. I no longer work for Tactical Response, but I did not leave because of drills such as these. Looking back, I worked there for 7 years BECAUSE of their willingness to offer students drills such as these. They will do whatever is necessary to prepare students to fight.

    As for downrange drills there are benefits on both sides of the gun.

    For the shooter it reinforces the real meaning behind the 4 firearm safety rules. It breaks the fallacy of range rules dictating 180 degree gun handling. You see a concentration on the fundamentals and crisp gun handling. There is also a focus, like no other, on shooting accurately.

    The person beside the target initially feels a high degree of stress that diminishes with the exposure to the general orientation of a pistol (or rifle) pointed in their direction and the gas from muzzle blasts. In the beginning it's very disconcerting. In this case, the benefit is minimal because the person "down range" is a combat vet who has been shot at many, many times. I would bet his heart rate didn't rise 5 BPM.

    I understand that what I'm writing will not be popular and that I'm going to be in an extreme minority by not decrying the "danger" and "stupidity" of what is shown in the video. So be it.

    Ultimately, defensive shooting training is supposed to prepare you mentally and physically to shoot someone that needs to be shot while at the same time not shooting people who don't need to be shot.

    Ask yourself these questions:
    Do you believe in real accountability for every round you fire?
    Absolutely and that is why I would not deem this as responsible training.
    Do you train with minimal stress or do you push yourself outside your comfort zone?
    Once again yes push the envelope, but within the realm of common sense...

    Will it be stressful the first time someone shoots in your direction?
    No it wasn't, it happened too quickly and the first time has long since past.
    Do you think you could shoot someone in a crowded shopping mall?
    Without a shadow of doubt yes I could without a moments hesitation...

    Ya know what??? If someone wants to put themselves at risk to get a few cool pictures that is certainly none of my business. However, there was at least one person on the line that was uncomfortable and not really willing to shoot under these conditions, and I don't blame him a bit. Hell I have seen fist fights nearly erupt over someone accidentally sweeping someone with an unloaded firearm, and this goes way beyond that.

    The thing is this. Firearms are lethal weapons, and even under the most cautious and controlled conditions accidents happen. More often than not when accidents happen that involve firearms, loss of life is also involved. This is just an unfortunate fact and a risk we all take every time we step to the line to shoot. This thread would have a completely different demeanor if the topic we're explaining to the photographers family why his brains are all over the backstop. And in this situation that is a real possibility.

    This reminds me of the two LEO's that got in trouble over the face book photos with one pointing the pistol at the others head. I am sure the risk was minimal and that the gun was unloaded but it was still stupid. I saw an MP at Fort Huachuca Az. in 1988 playing silly with a supposedly unloaded hand gun blow the top of her head off and fall to the ground barely twitching. There wasn't a dam thing anyone could do about it other than stand there with our mouths hanging open looking at the blood running from her nose as if from a Delta faucet as she laid there on the ground with one eyeball bulging out. Can you imagine how her family felt? OMG.. No sir I am sorry she didn't die in the line of duty she was doing something stupid and blew her head off...

    Now this is just my opinion, that and a few dollars might get you some coffee, but there is no reason for taking this sort of risk with human life; human life is too precious a gift to be wasted on idiocy. And there is no rationalization or debate that will change my mind about that.
     
    Last edited:

    WETSU

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Jan 21, 2009
    990
    28
    Fort Wayne
    I agree with Shay on this. The photographer has been on the dangerous side of muzzles for a long time, often with the shooters AIMING to hit him.

    He has also taught the High Risk Contractor Courses for a years at Tactical Response, classes where there are a dozen or more moving shooters, doing mag dumps, and crossing lanes of fire. Operators are moving across, into and through those lanes. The instructor is one of those people as well. When you get really good, and are confident, it can be done-all day long and nobody gets shot.

    Shooting with a good guy down range helps focus one's attention like a laser beam.

    I think we are seeing a difference in shooters vs hardcore trainers. There is a WORLD of difference, and it is not just in skill. It is in mindset as well.
     

    TopDog

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    19   0   0
    Nov 23, 2008
    6,906
    48
    There is no viable justification for the photographer to be in that position and that is the only comment I'm going to make on this.
     

    Britton

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 2, 2008
    1,540
    36
    Knoxville
    He seems calm. Maybe he's been in worse
    He has, this was just a walk in the park for him.

    I am sure there was some level of trust between the shooters on each side of the photographer, if there was not I doubt he would have taken the pictures from that angle.
     
    Last edited:

    Chefcook

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Oct 20, 2008
    4,163
    36
    Raccoon City
    He has, this was just a walk in the park for him.

    I am sure there was some level of trust between the shooters on each side of the photographer, if there was not I doubt he would have taken the pictures from that angle.

    The danger isn't so much in one of the shooters hitting him directly. All it would take is for there to be a rock or something in the backstop to cause a ricochet. You could probably do this hundreds of times without incident. The point is with firearms one incident tends to equal one life...
     

    Sailor

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    19   0   0
    May 5, 2008
    3,716
    48
    Fort Wayne
    The danger isn't so much in one of the shooters hitting him directly. All it would take is for there to be a rock or something in the backstop to cause a ricochet. You could probably do this hundreds of times without incident. The point is with firearms one incident tends to equal one life...

    I think that risk is about the same for everyone at the line.

    Does not look he was ever swept with a muzzle.

    There are no "safe" places on a line. For some reason people get lax behind the line, sweeping muzzles while changing mags etc.
     

    Britton

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    3   0   0
    Apr 2, 2008
    1,540
    36
    Knoxville
    I could understand the possibility of ricochet's. I have trained with the photographer several times and trained with TR several times as well. Yes, there courses may look in some cases to be more hazardous, but I know them well and feel they have a good handle on safety. That is my 2 cents. :)
     

    Boilers

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,440
    36
    Indianapolis
    I just watched that video.
    Am I the only one that literally got a sick feeling in my stomach?
    It will take a bit to shrug that off.
     

    Chefcook

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Oct 20, 2008
    4,163
    36
    Raccoon City
    Some of us will just have to agree to disagree on this one I suppose. I think this is foolhardy and unnecessary. I must say I am really surprised at how many people are defending this action, next thing you know we will have kegs of beer on the firing line lol...;)
     
    Top Bottom