observations from 3 days of shooting training

[TFin04]

Rob,

I think all trainers offer something for students to take with them, and people should visit as many different people as they can, adapt what they like, and store the rest. I don't always agree with your techniques and writings, but your above post was spot on.

[kingnereli]

Rob, While yours is a somewhat common opinion I disagree whole heartedly. At the risk of being too simplistic I will say that the issues you bring up are training issues not design issues. Operating "complicate" features is a matter of training. Not that up is safe down is fire is a concept worthy of a genius. If you can operate a toaster you can operate a thumb safety.

A grip safety is the minimal feature in which a pistol can be considered "safe." Safeties, as you describe them, are the only things that can be labeled as such. Trigger operated "safeties" are only mechanisms that make the pistol drop safe. These certainly have their worth, yet they don't replace a mechanism that actually prevents the gun from firing if the trigger is pulled. Deactivating a safety is just another training feature. All handgun designs have their limitations. We must train and practice accordingly.

[TFin04]

Originally Posted by kingnereli

Rob, While yours is a somewhat common opinion I disagree whole heartedly. At the risk of being too simplistic I will say that the issues you bring up are training issues not design issues. Operating "complicate" features is a matter of training. Not that up is safe down is fire is a concept worthy of a genius. If you can operate a toaster you can operate a thumb safety.

A grip safety is the minimal feature in which a pistol can be considered "safe." Safeties, as you describe them, are the only things that can be labeled as such. Trigger operated "safeties" are only mechanisms that make the pistol drop safe. These certainly have their worth, yet they don't replace a mechanism that actually prevents the gun from firing if the trigger is pulled. Deactivating a safety is just another training feature. All handgun designs have their limitations. We must train and practice accordingly.

I think you missed his distinction between what you can do, and what you have to do. That was a very good explanation.

[kingnereli]

Originally Posted by TFin04

I think you missed his distinction between what you can do, and what you have to do. That was a very good explanation.

I got it. If your gun doesn't have a manual safety you don't have to train to consistently deactivate it. If your gun doesn't transition from double action to single action you don't have to train to be consistent with different trigger pulls. I understand it I just don't buy it. Rather, I think the benefits outweigh the argument. The comfort some people feel with a having a longer first trigger pull for safeties sake is, for them, worth the training required to be proficient. As to the point I was making, the presence of a safety is worth making what you can do and what have to do the same thing.

[Rob Pincus]

king,

At first, I also thought you simply "didn't get it"... after your second post, I realize that you understand the argument, you just choose to believe in the value of the safety offsetting the negative impact on training time required to use it efficiently and are willing to sacrifice the potential for the murphy moment when you really need the gun to go bang. I am cool with that and everyone else should be as well. That is exactly where personal choice comes in, as long as one acknowledges the issues involved, there isn't a concern on my part.



-RJP

[Woodsman]

I'm a johnny come lately to this discussion but thought I might toss in my and hopefully it will not stir the pot.

I bought my first defensive handgun this year. I've had other pistols because they looked nice or felt good but for a defensive shooting situation I went to someone who had a boatload more experience than I will ever have. His recommendation supports what Mr. Pincus says (BTW, really like your shows).

When I considered the opinions before purchasing I thought about what might happen in a defensive situation. When surprised or thrown into a bad place all you have to go off of is muscle memory and your natural fight or flight reactions (some might call that your inner monkey or what you revert to in stressful situations). Just like constant training improves muscle memory, the more steps you have to go through can decrease your odds of winning.

All I'm saying is: simple seems to work OK. Myself, I did not care for grip safeties, levers, or other features sold on some handguns.

It's not instinctive yet after over 40 hours of defensive handgun training, but it is getting easier and better. And... it will take a lot more than that before I start to get relaxed enough to go with the flow. Personally, I would rather work on the training itself than remember how to operate a handgun with features during a gunfight.

[MK18]

Rob,
Are your observations in reference to safeties based on real world, pointing guns at bad guys who can kill you experiences or from training observations on the range?

Are these your personal observations or information you have obtained from other sources?

Have you ever been in the situation of pointing a firearm (not airsoft, paintball or Simunitions) at another person and failing to disengage the safety?

[Rob Pincus]

Are your observations in reference to safeties based on real world, pointing guns at bad guys who can kill you experiences or from training observations on the range?

My observations are from training. I do have several anecdotal references to DA/SA guns being re-holstered in SA mode. There have been citings of single action guns being left on safe. There are a few dash camera videos of DA/SA guns being fired negligently after an incident when the guns should have been back in DA mode. As you can imagine, there aren't a lot of opportunities to collect such data. Seeing it happen again and again on training ranges (when people are supposed to be in more control, less fear and better able to perform skills) is pretty significant.

Are these your personal observations or information you have obtained from other sources?

I was asked for my opinion based on my observations, which is what I provided.

Have ever been in the situation of pointing a firearm (not airsoft, paintball or Simunitions) at another person and failing to disengage the safety?

That is an incomplete sentence, but if you are asking if I have ever been in those situations, the answer would be "no". I never had to point a single action pistol at anyone when I was carrying one. I never carried my issued Beretta 92 with the safety on and (thankfully) never had to fire it any of the times it was presented, so I had no opportunity to fail to use the de-cocker. Similarly, I've never had to present any other DA/SA firearm. You didn't ask, but I also never negligently discharged a Glock or similar pistol when presented during an incident.

***

More importantly, the lack of "hey look this happened!" examples, even a dozen of which would be a very small percentage, doesn't negate the validity of the argument for simplicity and efficiency. Warriors "got it done" with muzzle loaders for over a century, but that didn't stop the evolution to modern firearms. No doubt, there were plenty of guys arguing against them along the way...
Removing the opportunity to leave the safety on when it needs to be off guarantees that it can't get a good guy killed. Conversely, the lack of a safety on dozens of modern firearms (and hundreds of double action revolver models) does not guarantee that they will be fired inadvertently.

-RJP


Respectful Irreverence