6/14 INGO Class with Shay VanVlymen AARs

[Pami]

My Gallery:
Photography by Pami: Gun Shots » 2008.06 INGO Training with Shay

A few of my favorites:

This was actually near the end of class. Shay is showing us how and why to shoot from retention using a Blackhawk Grey Gun.

All lined up and getting ready to fire:

BigCountry and I get the award for having the most tape on our targets. The tape indicated missed shots (in other words, we were not very good at hitting the heart and brain boxes). But we DID have fun putting those holes there, even if we missed!

This photo doesn't even begin to do justice to the after-training dinner. We were expecting 20-25 people. I counted 28 after the arrival of SilentWarrior1 and BersaGirl. Who forgot to RSVP???

All in all, I think we all had a GREAT time, and I would like to echo the thanks and shout outs that Lars gave. And thank you, Lars, for taking some of the photos above so that I could participate in the class!

 

[Fenway]

Let's get some after action reports posted here. I'm on my way out of town so I'll have some thoughts later this week. No thread jacking in here Let's stick to students thoughts and if you did not have the chance to participate today feel free to ask questions. We had a great class

Special thanks to Shay for hosting our very first group training day and to Steve aka sjstill for providing the range. With out him this would not have been possible! Thank you Steve!

 

[Ri22o]

After listening to what some of the attendees were saying at dinner, I'm definitely interested in taking the class if another opportunity is presented.

 

[TomN]

Holy crap, I'm so tired at the moment that it's tough to form coherent thoughts! Well tougher than normal anyway... I'll post something after a good night's sleep!

 

[Lars]

Training with Shay & Mike, June 14, 2008

Having worked with Shay in the past I had a pretty good idea what to expect of this class and he didn't disappoint.

We started out with roughly an hour of introductions, lecture, and discussion. We were given a good idea what the purpose of the class was going to be. The reason behind some of what was going to be taught. And got a feel for what everyone elses training experience was before coming to the class. Levels ranged from no formal training, through a training junkie who had hundreds of hours invested.

We worked through the draw stroke piece by piece which has certainly helped improve my confidence in my ability to draw, aim, and fire my pistol. Three months ago I'd never drawn from a holster before. Incorporating verbal commands, and movement into the draw stroke are something I wouldn't have thought to add on my own had I not been instructed to do it.

Shay and his co-instructor Mike went through the class and helped adjust everyones firing grip. At least for the class we were to use the grip as instructed and give it a "fair shake." For some of us who haven't been shooting long, or already had a grip similar to what they wanted this was easier than maybe those who have been shooting a certain way for years.

We then went through several live fire drills. "Two to the heart, one to the brain." And during the assess portion after you've fired your rounds, before you reholster any hits outside the boxes (also known as Misses. ) were to be made up. "I didn't say fire three rounds, I said two rounds to the heart, and one to the brain." This was a great series of drills.

We worked firing single handed strong side. Primarily drawing from the holster, and firing similar to the standard two handed drills. THEN we moved on to firing weak side only. As explained we wouldn't be doing this for fun, if we're shooting with only our non-dominant hand it's already a "**** sandwich" , I love that quote, so we started out with our pistols on the ground in front of us. I even got to kick crushed limestone and dirt on the P30, It left with a new battle scar which is awesome.

Shooting from retention was something I had done previously, but Pami had not. I've not asked her for her opinion of it, but I can tell you, it does kind of suck to fire a gun pressed very closely to your pectoral muscle while standing close enough to your target that the brim of your hat, and/or weak hand elbow are touching the target.

We ended with a roughly two hour discussion about the "after the fight", and Mindset. All in all I'm exceptionally happy with this class, and recommend in the future if anything like this is available to you, and you carry a gun, you need to take it. Fighting Pistol & Advanced Fighting Pistol are on my list of classes to take by this time next year or sooner. I consider what I took with INGO to be an appetizer for the real thing.


To everyone who was in class, I'm glad to have been able to spend a day on the range with you. To everyone who came to dinner after. Also great to meet you all. Maybe next time we can find a format a little more conducive to meet and greet.



TomN..... Aren't you glad you didn't bring those beautiful sigs with the wood grips? I think the off hand drills may have made you cry just a little inside.

 

[nofear]

The training was awesome. I learned a lot of new things. Some things I knew about but had not done them, some things I hadn't even thought of. I am now a firm believer in training for the occasion (hopefully that never happens but you do not know)

I highly recommend this class, and I will be looking at taking the Fighting Pistol and possibly the advanced fighting pistol to hone my skills even more.

 

[Pami]

I think the thing I like best about working with Shay is that he's always keeping it real. He was constantly reminding us that life isn't perfect. If Something Bad happens, it probably won't happen the way you have it scripted in your head. Some examples:

We started out going over basic trauma procedures. We were working with live guns, with live rounds, yesterday, and there was the very real possibility that Something Bad might happen. So, rules were established and people were appointed to be in charge. Since it turned out that Shay happened to be the one who had the most trauma medical training, we were politely requested to not accidentally shoot him. I don't think it was really stressed in yesterday's class, but one of the things that Lars and I have learned from him in previous conversations is that you should always have a trauma medical bag handy, especially when you plan on going shooting, because the EMTs might not be able to get to you quickly, and you need to something to buy the hurt person time. But, that's a whole other thread in itself.

After we established the emergency response routine, we went over the basic safe gun-handling rules to help prevent having an emergency. Shay also went over the priorities for learning to defend yourself: MINDSET, Tactics, Skill and gear (in that order). Without accepting certain basic mindset principles (such as: I intend to survive and protect those around me), your chances of winning are pretty slim, no matter how great your gear is.

Then, we went to the range to do some live-fire drills. We practiced two-handed drills, shooting from kneeling (you might have to kneel to help conceal/cover yourself!), strong-hand-only (you're hurt, you're holding on to something you don't want to drop, your cover somehow prevents two-handed shooting, etc.), weak-hand-only (similar reasons), and shooting from retention.

I actually did a lot better at shooting weak-hand than I thought I would, which is good. Shooting from retention was new to me, and I think the biggest thing I took away from that particular section was just how far you need to cant the gun out away from you. I did alright the first couple of rounds, but then I got lazy and pulled it back up a little and the next round let the slide hit me in the shoulder (not hard enough to bruise, just enough to distract me). Also, if you have a misfire (we had dummy rounds randomly loaded in the magazines), it's difficult to fix your gun when the non-moving, non-aggressive cardboard target is two inches away from you. I can't imagine what it would be like trying to fix a misfire with a real attacker. I think it was brought up that ideally, in a real-world situation, you'd probably turn your gun into club and beat off your attacker until you could get into a position to take the five seconds to clear your gun.

One of the other things that Shay does when he's training, and I really like this, is that if you miss the target, you are required to put tape over the missed shots. It makes you aware of how well (or how poorly! ) you're shooting and helps you think more about what you're doing wrong to miss those shots. Next time, I need to bring my own roll of tape. But the important part is, I did improve, slow down, and focus more on my shot placement and technique because I was very aware of how much I was missing.

So after we did a few hours of live drills, and after the sun ate through my two applications of sunblock, we sat back down to review what we had learned and to go over some of the legal aspects of being in a gun fight. Before you shoot, there are three criteria that the BG needs to meet: intent, opportunity, and ability. Also, if you shoot someone, even in self-defense, plan to spend a day or three in jail until everything gets straightened out. And (thanks to Kirk for being at the training and adding your valuable input), don't talk to anyone about anything that happened until you talk to your attorney. Call 911, request police and an ambulance at your location, but don't talk about what happened -- at all -- until you talk to your attorney. You might accidentally talk yourself into a prison term, even if it was self-defense.

So, the worst thing that happened in the class? I extended my sunburn (ow). The best thing that happened in the class? The list is too long...
1) I did some things I hadn't done before, and I was forced to think about things like "what happens if the BG does something you didn't anticipate?"
2) I met a lot of really great people!
3) I met both objectives I had at the beginning of the class: become more comfortable holding, handling, and firing the gun I have; and to get through the class without having some sort of mental breakdown (that was a very real concern for me; those who know me better can attest to that).
4) I had a great dinner at a restaurant that provided excellent service (imho) and met even more great people!

 

[TomN]

I really can't expand too much on the course descriptions that have been posted here so I won't. It's been very well reviewed by Lars and Pami. I just want to say that I was very impressed by the training that Shay and Mike did. Everything we worked on had some sort of use in a self-defense situation, and there was no "fluff". I found out that I really need to concentrate on moving when my gun malfunctions and not just stand there like a moron racking the slide. I'm hoping to train some more with Shay this summer and build upon the skills that we learned this weekend.

On and man am I sunburned! I really should have used some of that sunblock!

 

[TomN]

TomN..... Aren't you glad you didn't bring those beautiful sigs with the wood grips? I think the off hand drills may have made you cry just a little inside.

Ah ya know, it wouldn't have been that bad. It's not like he made us grind the guns into the ground and stomp on them. The Sigs would have not worked any worse than they did before the class.

But I have to admit that I did kind of abuse the Glock a little bit in the off-hand drill section. I wasn't exactly delicate with it when I was tossing it on the ground. And it came away looking like new. Damn Glocks with their indestructable finish!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Whew! At least in the photos I am not scratching anything I should not in public and look like I am paying attention.

*Kirk is half in pic #1, far left (how odd), wearing the highly tactical Sig pants and in pic#2 on target #3 with my left hand already up on my chest*

I thought it was an excellent class and Shay did a wonderful job compressing so much info into only a single day. I was disappointed in my strong hand only shooting as I dropped a shot by smashing the trigger on a head shot (right in front of the instructor). Oddly, or, not so oddly, I shot better non-dominant handed only.

As well, I had a dummy round induced malfunction in the ECQB shooting. I was not wearing a bug and need to reconsider my not carrying my bug as I should (laziness).

Beautiful day for training and it was great to see my fellow Hoosiers who were seeking knowledge. Software, not hardware. It's wonderful to see others committed to making Indiana a focal point for training.

See you next time, fellow Hoosiers. Who's up for more?:do2:

 

[Lars]

......Who's up for more?:do2:

I'm dying to take Fighting pistol, and Advanced Fighting pistol with Tactical Response. As well as 3 or 4 days with TDI in Ohio, but I've run out of equipment to sell to pay for more training.

Looks like it's time for a part time job to pay for more training.

 

[strongcrow]

I agree, great day guys. It was a gas spending time with you on the range and training in general. Awesome to put some faces (?) with names and get to know some a little. I am also looking forward to more training. So It was grrrreat and I really enjoyed it. Hopefully my knee will be better next time, so I can actually hit the dirt. To the folks at dinner I hadn't met yet, cool to meet you, Like minded people when I thought I was "different" in the way I thought about self defense and at the world in general. Oh and thanks to Tom N for the free G22 mags,.....(hee hee) see ya next time, and I hope it's soon. jack

 

[sjstill]

Kirk, how did I miss you????

Glad everyone had fun.

Especially glad no one got shot.

I trust that the yellow boards didn't get shot, either

As always, happy to host stuff like this, it gives me the warm fuzzies.

 

[Pami]

Kirk, how did I miss you????

Glad everyone had fun.

Especially glad no one got shot.

I trust that the yellow boards didn't get shot, either

As always, happy to host stuff like this, it gives me the warm fuzzies.

Thanks for hosting us!! I think we all really enjoyed being there and were glad we were able to have the training in such a central location.

*throws more warm fuzzies at Steve*

 

[Big Country]

My 72 hours

I am going to take my 72 hours and reflect on what Shay taught us. I keep thinking about new things he taught us. I will try to post after the adrenaline wears off.

 

[bwframe]

Shooting from retention was something I had done previously..., ...but I can tell you, it does kind of suck to fire a gun pressed very closely to your pectoral muscle while standing close enough to your target that the brim of your hat, and/or weak hand elbow are touching the target.

If I can ask, what practice do you use to keep the weak hand out of the line of fire when doing this?

BTW- Congrats to all, sounds like everyone learned a lot and had a good time.

 

[Lars]

If I can ask, what practice do you use to keep the weak hand out of the line of fire when doing this?

BTW- Congrats to all, sounds like everyone learned a lot and had a good time.

Left hand cupping the back of your head. bicep and forearm guarding the left side of your head (pressed tight) leaning into your attacker. With the gun canted downwards to aim at the "low line"

This does allow your hand to somewhat safely work on the highline (face area) while shooting. And reduces the risk of a miss going a long distance and accidentally killing an innocent bystander.

Blackhawk Grey Gun

 

[esrice]

Glad to see everyone had such a great time. I really hate that I missed dinner. I feel safer knowing that there are 12 people in Indiana that are just a *bit* more proficient in using their firearms.

 

[sjstill]

Did Shay toss his Glock over his shoulder?

 

[Pami]

Did Shay toss his Glock over his shoulder?

No, not that I saw.

He did make us kick dirt on our pistols, though. So much for the shiny newness. /sniffle