TDI Training Discussed at ARFCOM.

[Shay VanVlymen]

Originally Posted by Rotor Talker

Thanks Fenway, I appreciate it.

Mr. VanVlymen, it was not my intention to get you so angry, I just felt I should add my experience at TDI to the discussion.

Thank You for the forum.

Angry? So angry?

I can't think of anything I have posted in this thread that would make you think I was angry.

I appreciate you sharing your experience with TDI. Students need to be informed consumers and if they only hear good things about a school or instructor they are probably not getting the entire picture. Every school has good and bad and not every school is suited for every student.

[Glock21]

We, as trainers, need to be honest about what drills like this really are:

The arguments vary, but generally I hear that using live guns is supposed to condition, or somehow inoculate, the students...from something. And the use of airsoft, or blue guns, etc., isn't the same because the students realize there's no real risk.

Well, exactly how does it introduce stress to use pistols that have been triple checked, taped, roped, or whatever, and the students have it in their heads that the instructors know what they're doing, and all is well?

Answer: It doesn't. After the initial shock of violating Rule II goes away (usually through intimidation, or the students manhood being questioned) you have two days of training that might as well have been done, in the students minds, by using pistols carved from bars of soap.

All this does, in my opinion, is introduce another chance for human error and catstrophe.

Now if you really want them to get "used" to people pointing guns at them, then draw your pistol and point it at them - what? Bad idea? Yeah, it is!

I also think it's a bad idea to get people used to having guns pointed at them. A gun pointed at me screams "Red-freeking-alert! Disarm/Draw/Fire/MOVE!!!! Do something!!!!" I never want to be used to it, and I will never shine it on when anyone points a gun at me...and I don't care who it is, or how great they tell me their training drill is going to be. I do not play that game, and I warn those around me as to what they can expect should they behave in such an irresponsible manner.

Of course, there are some situations whch leave us no choice - truth be told, I point my own pistol at my ass every time I re-holster. But, what you won't find me doing is pointing it at anyone else's ass who is not a threat.

Heck, if I wanted strangers pointing guns at me, I'd go shopping at the local gun store.

[rhino]

Well said, Frank.

The more I think about it, the stronger my objection to this nonsense grows. I'm no longer surprised by the number of people defending, I am now officially appalled.

[sjstill]

After a wee bit over a year since taking Fighting Pistol with Shay, I can still hear him telling my neighbour "Keep your fucking finger off the fucking trigger...". And that wasn't an angry command, just a "This is the last time I'm telling you" command.

But back to the subject at hand, I'm not sure how I feel about the drill being discussed. I'm thoroughly inoculated with Col. Cooper's 4 rules (along with enforcing them every weekend). I don't know that I'd knowingly take a class where I'd know the rules would be set aside.

Yeah, I got sprayed with OC in the academy, even took the full ride on the Tazer. The effects of both were temporary, however. Bullets tend to have longer lasting effects.

Just my 0.01

[obijohn]

i was going to leave this alone as rhino and glock21 pretty much said it all. however, i don't think that there is ever a time when safety should be compromised for the sake of training. if it isn't a safe practice, don't do it. as a student, you owe it to yourself and your fellow students to call this behavior out. as an instructor, you owe your students a safe, meaningful training experience.

as for "getting used to pointing a gun at another human", though it has been quite some time, in my experience, should the need arise, it isn't really a problem. ymmv.

[Glock21]

Originally Posted by obijohn

i was going to leave this alone as rhino and glock21 pretty much said it all. however, i don't think that there is ever a time when safety should be compromised for the sake of training. if it isn't a safe practice, don't do it. as a student, you owe it to yourself and your fellow students to call this behavior out. as an instructor, you owe your students a safe, meaningful training experience.

as for "getting used to pointing a gun at another human", though it has been quite some time, in my experience, should the need arise, it isn't really a problem. ymmv.

I've personally stood up to this stuff, quite a few times actually. It's ranged from, "Sorry, I'm just not comfortable doing this, so I'm going to sit this out", to, "If you point that f-ing gun at me again, I'll be pointing my gun at you, and I'm damn positive what condition mine is in!"

I'm not interested in getting shot by accident, but I'm not afraid to fight about it if need be. And I would suggest that others do the same. I doubt anyone would say that the only way to learn to use a reserve chute is to jump without a primary. What we do is already inherently dangerous, especially with a classroom full of strangers, and adding some unnecessary risk in order to prove ones oats is ridiculous, and actually - again, just my opinion - childish.

[Shay VanVlymen]

Look, TDI believes in what they are teaching and they believe it has value even with the increased risks. John has articulated his school's position on the subject for any prospective students to read and make their own choice.

None of their reason have to do with "being a man" or "proving one's oats". Don't use strawman arguments to try to advance your position.

Now that it is clear what they teach, train with TDI or don't, but posts in this thread are getting repetitive and increasingly sanctimonious.

[Glock21]

Originally Posted by Shay VanVlymen

Look, TDI believes in what they are teaching and they believe it has value even with the increased risks. John has articulated his school's position on the subject for any prospective students to read and make their own choice.

None of their reason have to do with "being a man" or "proving one's oats". Don't use strawman arguments to try to advance your position.

Now that it is clear what they teach, train with TDI or don't, but posts in this thread are getting repetitive and increasingly sanctimonious.

Strawman? No, MY argument, my opinion, and my response when it does and has happened to me, and my personal experience. And sanctimonious might be a proper accusation if it wasn't something I actually practice on a regular basis. I've had people try this behavior on me, and I responded as I saw fit, and will continue to do so.

And we're not talking about a difference in malfunction clearance, or flashlight technique - this is POINTING LIVE GUNS AT HUMANS WITHOUT JUSTIFICATION.

This is SERIOUS business, Shay. Not some minor training disagreement. This is a casual disregard in a potentially life threatening situation, and I will call it as I see it, and I will speak up without hesitation, because my #1 job on the range is to do my level best to make sure that all students leave the range with the same amount of holes in them as they arrived with.

Now as far as TDI goes, I wasn't speaking of them specifically, as this type of live gun training is popping up all over. I can think of a half-dozen "big name" trainers and facilities that do it in one form or another, and the few I've been exposed to had an undercurrent of insinuation - and that was: "if you don't do this, or if you question this, you're a pussy." I actually saw a training Sgt. from a local PD say it out loud to a classroom of students. Sure, it can be much more subtile, and often it's only voiced after the non-compliant student leaves the range. But dammit, Shay, I've sat at dinner tables with a whole bunch of these guys over the years at seminars, and it reeks of testosterone.

Every argument against it, that has been voiced in this thread, I've heard made to the trainers, and the response, in the end, is always the same. It's an eye roll, a dismissal, a waive of the hand, a snicker, and an attitude of "go away little boy, and leave the real training to us men." And that's all good and well until someone gets killed.

I make no accusation against TDI, as I haven't been there. My accusation is against the practice of using live guns in the classroom, and pointing them at each other, regardless of who is doing it or what their reason. I think it's wrong, and if it continues, eventually there will be a dead student or instructor to prove my point....oh wait, there already has been.

[rhino]

Originally Posted by Shay VanVlymen

None of their reason have to do with "being a man" or "proving one's oats". Don't use strawman arguments to try to advance your position.

It's hardly a "strawman argument." In any case, the "being a man" thing refers to why students won't object to something they know is wrong when they are in a class, not why some instructor does or does not put people at unnecessary risk.

Your use of "sanctimonious" apparently uses a new definition that is not in the dictionary, because in this context it appears to imply "wrote something with which I do not agree and I don't want to read it again." If not, it's a little insulting to dismiss valid concerns over the safety of live human beings that way.

[Shay VanVlymen]

You two get the last word.