TDI Training Discussed at ARFCOM.

[W9ZEB]

This thread over at ARFCOM discusses some potentially unsafe training practices in TDI's Pistol courses..... I'm brining it here in the interest of informing potential consumers. I'd hate to see someone take time off work, pay for a class, show up to the class, and leave less than half way through not expecting what follows.

Here's the original discussion.
AR15.COM :: Forums :: TDI in southern Ohio - UNSAFE!!!

Wow. I still can't believe the experience I had. Thinking back I wish I would have taken video footage. Anyway, TDI (Tactical Defense Institute) In SE Ohio came highly recommended and is even linked on Clint Smith's web-site. I live in N KY and invited my friends from MI (who have both trained with Clint and Scott Reitz) down for a weekend of training. We took Handgun II. The lecture was great. The first drill was decent. Then we broke into three groups and the INSANITY started...

My two friends and I were in a group with our instructor John (not Benner) for emergency and tactical reloads. He made everyone have their weapon checked three times to make sure it was unloaded. Then he began a lecture that lasted about twenety minutes, during which he fiddled with his gun, holsetring it repeatedly, and DRY FIRING IT AT THE STUDENTS WITH THE SLIDE LOCKED FORWARD!!! One of my friends hid behind another student. The instructor asked him to come out from behind the student and my friend said, "I'm just not comfortable with how much you're covering me with your muzzle." John relpied, "We do that so you will get over your fear of pointing your gun at people." (!?!?!?!?) My friend said, "I have no problem pointing my gun at people. I just don't want YOUR gun pointed at ME!" John replied, "Well, we check the guns three times; I don't know what more we can do. That's the way we train and that's why you signed a waiver."

UNBELIEVABLE.

Then we went to a smooth draw drill where ANOTHER INSTRUCTOR repeatedly drew and holstered his weapon, POINTING IT AT STUDENTS. When this instructor LAUGHED while telling a story of an AD at a previous class, we decided we'd had enough. We complained to John Benner, the founder of TDI and he stood by his instructors, saying we were the FIRST students to complain about this policy of COVERING PEOPLE WITH YOUR MUZZLE DURING TRAINING. On the way out, we saw the third drill (which we didn't participate in because we left early) which was malfuction clearing. THE INSTRUCTORS AND STUDENTS WERE STANDING IN A CIRCLE, TAPPING AND RACKING AT EACH OTHER!!! I really kick myself for not getting video of this one.

Ity's one thing for the instructors to cover their students with their muzzle, EVEN WHEN THE DRILLS DIDN'T CALL FOR IT. But they were creating this value in their students. How many TDI students are at home showing their buddies what they learned, all the while pointing their guns at people. This just blows my mind. Not to mention the CHAOTIC atmosphere of the classes themselves. There was so much going on and so many students, the guy next to me didn't know which way was up, let alone which of his magazines was unloaded. I'm ASTONISHED that no one has been killed at TDI yet.

Thoughts? Am I crazy for thinking this is a BAD thing?

[W9ZEB]

John Benner Responds on page 3. (RED HIGHLIGHT ADDED BY W9ZEB)

Tactical Defense Institute – John Benner

Response to the post or posts by “reluctant warrior”

First I would like to thank the people running this forum for holding an opinion until both sides of the story are told. Kudos to those and others generous enough to do so.

Everyone’s perception of any incident is slightly different. The other 22 students in our class the weekend this “reluctant warrior” attended our class did not express any opinions similar to his/theirs. After the three in question left, I polled many of the students in the class. In fact, the opinions of the other students were quite the opposite. I take any suggestions or criticism seriously. No one knows everything and mistakes are possible no matter what you do or who you are. After all, no business likes unhappy customers. As wonderful as the shooting community is we can be competitive and staunch in our beliefs in doing things certain ways.

This letter received from another student in the same class reads: “I just wanted to thank you and your team for a great weekend. It was not only fun but also filled with numerous skills. If I am able to remember 30% of what we learned in those three days and apply them to my shooting I WILL BE QUITE HAPPY. Your facilities are superb and all of your instructors very knowledgeable, obliging and patient. Each step of training was very well presented by either you or your instructors. You and your people are well organized and skillful in insuring safe and valuable training.

I noticed a wide range of skill levels of people attending this weekend but at no time did I feel that any safety was compromised.

Again thank you for the weekend and please extend my thanks to all of your instructors, they were great.”

“The Canadian”

In high level classes when we work with real firearms that require person-on-person interaction, we use guns that are roped, meaning that there is a length of rope that extends through the barrel and out the bottom of the magazine well. Anytime that this safety measure is not possible, such as malfunction drill training and magazine change training, live ammunition is removed from the training environment, and every gun (that includes all student and instructor guns) is checked by a minimum of three people other than the operator of the firearm. This safety check is repeated each time the group moves from station to station. For magazine changes, two empty magazines are shown along with the unloaded firearm.

The accidental discharge that was referred to in the first post of this young man occurred 15 years ago during the normal shooting drills and the individual was cautioned numerous times about leaving his finger on trigger during his shooting and gun handling. Two separate instructors worked with him one-on-one until he had shown that he could properly index along the frame before re-holstering. Even after these measure were taken and the instructors moved off he reinserted his firearm into his holster with his finger on the trigger, resulting in the negligent discharge. This incident was not taken lightly by the training staff and is recounted consistently to remind students that mistakes happen, and keeping their finger off the trigger when not on target is absolutely imperative. This individual was struck by two flecks of cooper from the round and was sent to the hospital. He returned and finished the day but did learn about that trigger finger. I would have explained this to these folks had they given me time but it was obvious they did not want to hear what I had to say. This gentleman who wounded himself remains a friend to this day.

Our facility has been training civilian, law enforcement, and military for over twenty years. These individuals have proven to be extremely loyal and return to TDI frequently with their families and friends to share the experience. I don’t think students that spend as much time behind firearms would continue to attend course after course and bring their loved ones if they felt our training was unsafe or dangerous.

From Jack Patterson: “I have been in involved in Law Enforcement since 1979. I have served in various positions from walking a foot beat and pushing a patrol car to working undercover narcotics and vice cases while with Baltimore City Police Dept. (MD). In my career I have been involved in numerous critical incidents in which force was used to defend myself (handguns, knives, clubs, and a machete). After having completed the Level I-III handgun classes taught by you and your staff this past weekend (16-18 June 2007), I can honestly say that this is the only school that I will ever spend my personal funds to attend. I will be returning and bringing family members with me.” Jack felt safe enough to bring his son to numerous courses, including the course in question!

From Jeffrey Lehman, Chief of Police, Montpellier, Ohio. Chief Lehman wrote: “During the course of my full time, professional twenty-two year law enforcement career, I have participated in quite a number of various and sundry training sessions and seminars. I have found very few training sessions that parallel or even come close to the superb quality of training that I received from you and the staff of instructors at ‘TDI’. I have been blessed with the opportunity to attend you defensive knife techniques for law enforcement and handgun 1,2 & 3. Most recently my wife and I completed your integrated impact weapons class. The commitment to quality and ‘true to life’ training demonstrated by you and each and every instructor at TDI exudes through the personalities and attention to detail that is displayed throughout the training sessions. I highly recommend TDI training to any civilian, law enforcement or military person who has the desire to arm themselves or loved ones with the skills and knowledge to become a ‘sheepdog’ and protect the ‘sheep’ from the ‘wolves’.”


Jack Manfre, a 30 year career Chicago P.D. officer, with 14 years on the firearms training staff, eight years adjunct instructor at the Chapman Academy, and four years doing police schools for Beretta, trains and instructs with us and brings numerous officers and friends from the Chicago area.


You can refer to testimonial page at our website, Tactical Defense Institute.

When we conduct the Handgun Level I-III training, the students’ guns are pointed at the instructors and the instructors do point guns towards the group. During the level I phase the guns are roped. Level II requires the manipulation of the weapon beyond pulling the trigger. We never have the students pointing the guns at each other at Level I-III, but at higher level schools we do some exercises involving student vs. student with roped guns. The bottom line is that we never violate the “Rule of at least Three plus One” check, and we team teach to consistently strive for the safest possible training environment we can provide. We found 20 years ago that people, rightfully so, have been taught never to point a gun at someone unless you are going to pull the trigger, in force on force many failed to do so in when they need to. We have done force on force for over 20 years since we started training the way we do we have not had any more failures to engage. This also gives the student a better view of how things work and allows the instructors to view and work better with the students. We also explain in level I that this is not to be done at home, we are in a very controlled environment under strict supervision. Our instructor ratio of one to three or four is as good as any in the nation that I know of.

Final notes: In the thousands of professional and novice students we have had here this is the first complaint to my knowledge. I give “reluctant warrior” credit for his convictions, however, some of the things he has written are not entirely correct or skewed to his perspective. In fact as the posts go forward we seem to be worse and more dangerous than the last.

I have never been on a forum before this. A product of a lack of time, desire, computer skills, and not to mention dial-up service. I will respond no further. Anyone having questions may contact my e-mail at tdiohio@dragonbbs.com

[W9ZEB]

And the Instructor John Motil responds somewhat later.

Dear Forum Members,
I feel I must respond to the accusations made against me in the course of instruction at TDI.

I abide by the same rules you have all been quoting, finger off the trigger until on target, never muzzle anything you are not willing to destroy, and treat all firearms as loaded until I have verified the status.

As stated by Mr. Benner we do train in front of the students and guns are checked and rechecked. I am posting this because I have a have a very different recollection of what happened. This past weekend at our Tactical Shotgun course, one of the students that was in the same group as ReluctanctWarrior and his friends, did not remember me being so reckless or vindictive.

My Firearm, like all the others, had been checked three times or more before the start of the exercise. I did not aim at anyones head and pull the trigger! I was pointing between two students, and Cailtin was on the left of my muzzle, that I will admit.

I have read the numerous accounts of accidents and deaths that occurred when live ammunition gets mixed into a sterile training environment. We do use Airsoft firearms and Code Eagle Ammuntion in revolvers for Force-on Force training. During the Level I-III we work with what the students bring to class or we supply range guns. I do not take any of this training lightly and know that Mr. Benner, my fellow instructors, and the students depend on me to conduct training in the safest possible manner! If you don't think this is on my mind everytime I put on a gun or step on the range, you are wrong!

I wish all students would listen to me as well as Mr. Peacock and quote me verbatim! In response to Mr. Peacock's accusations I thought I was conducting training in the safest manner possible.

I want to thank the moderators and those member not passing judgment and waiting for the staff to respond.


Sincerely,
John J. Motil

[Ri22o]

Regardless of how many times they check and re-check, the firearms should still be considered loaded.

[shooter521]

I have taken a pistol course (not at TDI) where retention and counter-retention drills were conducted using the students' actual guns and holsters. This was a number of years ago, before accurately-dimensioned dummy guns were inexpensive and widely available. I was a bit apprehensive at first, but in retrospect, I feel the training was conducted as safely as possible:

1) it was done at the beginning of the day, prior to any live-fire
2) the instructor inspected everyone's gear and patted down each student to ensure no live ammo was present in the training area
3) every student made sure his pistol was unloaded, and had the instructor and two other students verify it

John Benner makes a valid point, which was also made in the course I took – using real guns in exercises like this DOES break a student out of the "square range" mindset, and gets him accustomed to pointing his gun (not an inert chunk of plastic) at a real human being, as well as looking down the muzzle of a real gun in the hands of an opponent. In later years, that school transitioned to using Rings Blue Guns for the retention/counter-retention drills, but I'm glad to have had the experience I did. It was a shocking bit of realism, to be sure, but added immensely to the value of the course, IMO.

I would not have walked out of the TDI course in question, and they are still on my "would like to train there someday" list. YMMV.

[Rotor Talker]

I had a very similar experience at TDI last year.

I have refrained from saying anything about it anywhere, for so many speak so highly of Mr. Benner and his staff.

The facility is top notch, however the "pointing-in" at instructors, them pointing firearms at me and the other students seriously bothered me as well.

This combined with one of the instructors, Mr. Motil, I believe came up to me while firing my 1911, grabbed the muzzle, pulling it down and yelling" What's this, what the &*^% is this!" I believe his intention was to convey his displeasure with my placement of hands on my 1911, I put my hands where they work for me, this was far from satisfactory for Mr. Motil, he made sure I knew he didn't like how I was shooting.

Very encouraging and educational.

I took myself off the firing line after this confrontation, and waited at my vehicle for the class to end, mainly to see what happened. I had paid for the three day class, but after the second day, I left and did not return for day three.

Mr. Benner's presentation regarding legal aspects of firearm ownership and responsibility was excellent, gave a lot of very good information, however the range sessions and many of his instructors leave much to be desired.

I have not and will never return to TDI nor will I recommend them to anyone.


Bob Darnell

[Scutter01]

Originally Posted by Rotor Talker

This combined with one of the instructors, Mr. Motil, I believe came up to me while firing my 1911, grabbed the muzzle, pulling it down and yelling" What's this, what the &*^% is this!"

I don't care who you are. If you touch my weapon (whether it's a gun or a bo) without my permission, you're going to have a problem on your hands.

[Shay VanVlymen]

Originally Posted by Rotor Talker

This combined with one of the instructors, Mr. Motil, I believe came up to me while firing my 1911, grabbed the muzzle, pulling it down and yelling" What's this, what the &*^% is this!" I believe his intention was to convey his displeasure with my placement of hands on my 1911, I put my hands where they work for me, this was far from satisfactory for Mr. Motil, he made sure I knew he didn't like how I was shooting.

Very encouraging and educational.

Bob Darnell

1. Did you try to shoot the way you were taught by TDI?

2. Did you talk to John Benner before or after you left class to discuss the issues you had?

I have seen a lot of students get upset when I want them to do something a particular way for a particular reason even though they have "their own way" of doing it. If you aren't there to learn "the TDI way" it isn't much good to be there in the first place. Their job is to pass along the best information they have accumulated over the years. Your job is to try it their way while you are in their class.

As for how Mr. Motil handled the situation, I wasn't there, but from your description it was a little unprofessional. If this was your only problem with the class, you should have spoken to John and voiced your concerns at the time. This gives the school a chance to correct the problem or at least tell you why they aren't going to change what they do.

On the range, I have punched, beat with bats, yelled at, thrown rocks and kicked students at various times in my teaching career. All were appropriate in the context of the situation, in my opinion. I'm sure people could tell some stories of my teaching tactics that sound really abusive but I don't think I've had a single student in hundreds (or thousands) that didn't know why I took the action I did.

I have trained at TDI and I did not agree with the policy of using real firearms to point at instructors or other students. Their method of triple checking the guns prior to their use in the drills is a minimal effort at insuring that no live ammo is introduced. I found the exercises fairly pointless when more training value can be derived using converted guns in force on force if you want the students to experience pointing a gun at a person and pulling the trigger or having a gun pointed at them.

I took John aside during the class and spoke with him about my safety concerns. My problem wasn't so much what we did in class but what happens when the students return home to show their friends and families what they learned. He listened but was firm that they weren't going to change their teaching methods because he thought they were sufficiently safe.

TDI is still on my recommended school list. Even with my disagreements with some of what or how they teach, I think their programs have a lot to offer.

[Rotor Talker]

Originally Posted by Shay VanVlymen

1. Did you try to shoot the way you were taught by TDI?

2. Did you talk to John Benner before or after you left class to discuss the issues you had?

I have seen a lot of students get upset when I want them to do something a particular way for a particular reason even though they have "their own way" of doing it. If you aren't there to learn "the TDI way" it isn't much good to be there in the first place. Their job is to pass along the best information they have accumulated over the years. Your job is to try it their way while you are in their class.

As for how Mr. Motil handled the situation, I wasn't there, but from your description it was a little unprofessional. If this was your only problem with the class, you should have spoken to John and voiced your concerns at the time. This gives the school a chance to correct the problem or at least tell you why they aren't going to change what they do.

On the range, I have punched, beat with bats, yelled at, thrown rocks and kicked students at various times in my teaching career. All were appropriate in the context of the situation, in my opinion. I'm sure people could tell some stories of my teaching tactics that sound really abusive but I don't think I've had a single student in hundreds (or thousands) that didn't know why I took the action I did.

I have trained at TDI and I did not agree with the policy of using real firearms to point at instructors or other students. Their method of triple checking the guns prior to their use in the drills is a minimal effort at insuring that no live ammo is introduced. I found the exercises fairly pointless when more training value can be derived using converted guns in force on force if you want the students to experience pointing a gun at a person and pulling the trigger or having a gun pointed at them.

I took John aside during the class and spoke with him about my safety concerns. My problem wasn't so much what we did in class but what happens when the students return home to show their friends and families what they learned. He listened but was firm that they weren't going to change their teaching methods because he thought they were sufficiently safe.

TDI is still on my recommended school list. Even with my disagreements with some of what or how they teach, I think their programs have a lot to offer.

All very good points, sir.

I did not speak with Mr. Benner regarding my concerns.

You are correct that I should have spoken with Mr. Benner, regarding my concerns. Frankly my frustration with the way the class was being conducted, the "encouragement" of the instructors, along with the weather on the day in question (high 90's with similar humidity), all contributed to my decision to cut my losses and leave, without comment or confrontation.

I have tried the methods of holding my firearm in the ways I was shown at TDI, for me, they did not work.

I stayed through the second day of the three day class to see if conditions would improve, for me they did not, following Mr. Motil and another instructor's comments and actions, it became evident this was not the class for me.

Obviously, we have different opinions regarding TDI, we will just have to agree to disagree on the subject of the TDI facility and their approach to firearms education..

You make very good points in your response and I respect your position,
as an Instructor and as a moderator, I appreciate you allowing me to express my opinion.

Thank you

Bob Darnell

[Shay VanVlymen]

Bob, have you taken any classes with any other schools?