BG in your house

[Fenway]

This site is pretty much men only with about 6 women. I would like to change that and I'm hoping the addition of a women and firearms forum will attract more females to this site in addition giving our women folk here a place to go to ask women specific questions.

Originally Posted by 4sarge

That said, I think that the men deserve a Men Only area to discuss "our" sensitive issues

[4sarge]

Originally Posted by Pami

Ok, I put off posting the last couple of hours because I was frustrated... confused... out of sorts... whatever... at 4sarge's post also. (Please don't take that as a personal attack, I was just surprised and am still not sure how to respond, actually.)

Sorry, my post seemed direct and self explanatory to me but I come from a gun culture.

It did lead me to the question, though, whether you have talked firearms with women who were not police officers, nor competition shooters, nor were victims. They all have completely different mindsets. What about the woman standing in the middle of those groups?

No, I have not

I agree that if you don't have the mindset to accept you might have to kill someone that you shouldn't carry (it's one of the several reasons I do NOT carry right now), but this thread is specifically about defending your home. I'm doing things in baby steps. We have guns in the house. I went to the range to learn how to safely handle a gun. I have taken several trainings to continue to improve my comfort handling firearms. I am working toward developing the mindset that Bad Things could happen, and I'm hoping that it doesn't happen before I'm ready for that. I'm hoping that Bad Things don't happen at all, actually. But that's not how life works, and if it did happen before I'm ready, how would I respond?

Very BAD Things do happen to Good People

I accept that you want to work with someone will just do the job, but how do we work on getting that person in to that mindset to begin with? Think of it from that perspective. You can't just hand a gun to someone who is afraid of firearms and expect her to have your back because she's suddenly developed the right mindset. You also don't want your SO to be so afraid of guns that she cries when she sees yours. How do you get her from point A to point B, and how would you want her to react to an intruder in the house if she were somewhere between points A and B?

"God made men. Sam Colt made them equal."

All share a common destiny-the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not... For the living know that they will die, (Eccl.9:2-3, 12-13).

The JOB reference was specifically for men or women who carry firearms for a living and depend upon them for their safety and welfare.

I have trained many police officers, men and women. These folks already have the survival mindset and are determined to be the winner and willing to sacrifice at personal expense if need be. I also have given handgun safety training to civilians (men & women)

I personally have not attempted to convert a non believer to a believer. My wife has been a PO for 30+ years and doesn't have the same affinity for guns that I do but if need be she would use hers. I instructed my children (3 girls, 1 boy) at an early age in firearms, safety and their use. 2 are teachers, 1 in the media, and the youngest in her senior year at IU.

It doesn't take a brave person to shoot someone. It's far more difficult to diffuse a dangerous situation without the use of potentially deadly force. There are officers who have resistors on a frequent basis. I prided myself on the fact that I had very, very, few resistors because I worked very hard at it.

Since this is a GUN specific board, I did not have the realization that there were posters who were on the fence about guns. I'm deep into the pool so it seems odd to me to feel any other way.

Guns can be fun, guns can provide a great (expensive) past time but to me a gun is a tool, just like a hammer is to a carpenter. They have specific uses and one needs to be trained (if you carry or use) in their use for their safety, the safety of others and for the general well being.

I wold never attempt to persuade someone to use a gun to shoot someone, on the street, or in their home but I standby I also strongly feel that a person should never carry a firearm (man or woman) for self defense if they do not have the mind set to use it and that use may very well entail the taking of another's life".

Shooting incidents can carry civil and possible criminal repercussions but if you are a thinking, caring person, the emotional (moral) baggage can be great and can scar the psyche.

I hope that this has explained my thoughts on the matter and hope that you can understand where I'm coming from.

sarge

[indyjoe]

Pami, I don't have much to contribute that Sarge didn't post. I just wanted to thank the women for having this discussion. I've been reading the women's take on firearms as a precursor to teaching my fiancee. She understands that it is something important for her to learn, but I think it will be a good while before she is comfortable carrying, if ever.

Sometimes it is important to have the collisions of understanding, that show how each person's base of understanding and comfort is a little different. I'm of Sarge's mindset and trying to learn to be aware of the danger that assuming someone you are talking to is in the same boat.

I had my permit for a couple months before I carried. The reason was that I had not worked through everything mentally to a point where I thought I should be carrying. I think the same thing does apply to home invasion. If you are not ready to possibly take a life, it is probably better the gun stay in its hidden position and you try to get out of it some other way. The only good outcome of someone not willing to pull the trigger, but pulling a gun, is scaring the person away. Otherwise, the chances are really high that you will lose the gun in the best case, or get shot in the worst case.

[Annie]

I grew up with guns around, but rarely touched them. I wasn't afraid of them as much as I had a profound healthy respect for them.
When I moved out I never really gave much thought to them until a few years ago. Of all places to get interested, I met somebody on a vegetarian/vegan board who was a gun nut. Every time something was mentioned and I didn't know what it was, I'd either Google it, or ask a bazillion questions. I found everything incredibly interesting and ended up going to my very first gun show with my cell phone glued to my ear and a bunch of stuff that was sent to me that I printed out so I knew what to look for and what sort of questions to ask. Within a few weeks after that, I ended up getting my first gun and taking the safety classes because I wanted to know what there was to know. Now aside from my carry gun, I have other pistols and a few long guns and a couple shot guns and I'm desperately trying to get my daughter interested in shooting with me.
As far as the mindset, I look to Jeff Cooper's words: "If that goblin does "x", I will need to stop him." (The goblin being anyone who intends to harm me or my family)
If I can not look in the mirror and feel that I have what it takes to stop a threat with the tool I'm about to holster, I don't pick it up. So far, that hasn't happened.

[4sarge]

Originally Posted by Annie

I grew up with guns around, but rarely touched them. I wasn't afraid of them as much as I had a profound healthy respect for them.

As far as the mindset, I look to Jeff Cooper's words: "If that goblin does "x", I will need to stop him." (The goblin being anyone who intends to harm me or my family)
If I can not look in the mirror and feel that I have what it takes to stop a threat with the tool I'm about to holster, I don't pick it up. So far, that hasn't happened.

A very healthy sage defensive outlook and one that I am in total agreement with

[4sarge]

Only 6 Female Members, huh, I've offended Spasmo, frustrated... confused... out of sorts with Pami, I think Annie is sort of in agreement (maybe) so

I guess the appropriate response should have been this



Now, I'm really in deep do do

but hey, what is a guy to do just remember "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned"

[Annie Oakley]

4Sarge, I think that people just have to understand that you are coming from a position where a gun was just another tool on your duty belt. Being female, a long time shooter and former LEO I was not offended but can understand why some others might have taken exception to how you stated your case. For me, growing up with 3 brothers and a 1 sister that was 10 years younger, I have always been very "masculine" in my thinking and in controlling my emotions. That has made a world of difference in how I view self defense. We all need to glean the real meaning out of each others posts because you never know where you might find a pearl. Don't stop posting and for you other women don't stop questioning him.

One thing I strongly agree with is not carrying unless you have made the decision that you could under the necessary circumstances take another life.

[Xring]

I'm sure that no person wants to kill anyone. However stopping a BG from doing a bad thing requires performing to you level of training and skill with a firearm. Performing to you level of training and skill, stopping the BG, most often results in the death of the BG. I would say that anyone not prepared to accept the likely end result of their training, practice and skill level, should not depend on a firearm for self defense.

[abnk]

Originally Posted by Scutter01

While those are all good answers, I think since she posted this in the Women's forum, Spasmo is really looking to hear what women would do. There's no doubt in my mind that most women have a different mindset than men. I'd be interested in their responses as well.

(Pami, I'm not glossing over your response.)

Originally Posted by spasmo

In my martial arts training, I'm taught that I need to know what I want the outcome to be before it even begins. I always go for the maiming part in my head but always have this fear in the back of my mind that 1) I can get sued which maybe I can't (after reading the posts) or 2) he'll come back if he can and then catch me when I'm off guard.

Originally Posted by spasmo

If a BG was in your house or even anywhere else but threatening you, would you shoot to kill or to wound? I think about this all the time. I am not sure how I could live with taking someone's life. But if you just maimed him, he'd probably turn around and sue since that's the state of mind a lot of people have now a days. If he were actually hurting my daughter though or if I thought she were in danger, I probably would shoot to kill and not hesitate. At least I hope I wouldn't hesitate.

I was on the fence whether to post or not, but keeping in mind the above posts, I hope I will not cross my boundaries.

I do not know of any instructors that teach a co-ed. class with standards for men and standards for women. In classes that I have attended, the speech on mindset has always been the same regardless of the sexes present.

Honestly, there is no doubt in my mind that spasmo would press the trigger as many times as necessary if she were home alone and her children's lives was threatened. When at home, flight is usually not an option and fight is the only thing left.

Long before my wife took the Intro to the Defensive Pistol--which is the best pistol class you can get for the money--we had an incident at our house. She positioned herself tactically to protect the children's bedroom and there is no doubt in my mind that the poor SOB that would have crossed her lane of fire would have been ventilated. Her words to the 911 operator were, "I have a gun and I know how to use it." When I got home a few minutes later, she put the pistol down and had a huge adrenaline dump, crying, shaking, etc. Despite the breakdown and the "whatifs" that went through her mind after the fact, she was set rock-steady to defend our kids.

So, spasmo, I think it's good that you ask these questions. Since you were taught to know the outcome before acting, use that to your advantage. Your outcome: stop the threat as quickly as possible for the sake of your children. If it makes you feel better, pray really hard that the BG will live. In all seriousness, you are not the aggressor, you are the peacemaker. Put yourself in that mindset. If your kids were to get a cut or puncture from a rusty nail, you would disinfect the wound despite their pleas to stop because it burns. You don't want to hurt them, you want to save them from an infection. Same with stopping a violent attack on your family. You don't want to hurt the BG, you want to save your children.

Although I agree with almost everything that 4sarge said on this subject, I would say that you might consider to carry a firearm anyway. If you see the evil that might be falling on your loved ones, you would most likely use it and you would do so, in Sheriff Campbell's words, with righteous indignation.

[Bill of Rights]

If I may offer another analogy... Lots of years back, all firefighters were men. One brave woman eventually challenged that and now, women in the fire service are more accepted, but somewhere along the way, someone decided that since women were having trouble getting in (possibly due to the physical agility tests being specifically created to exclude them?) there would be two standards, one more physically demanding for men and one less so for women. This allowed more women to enter the fire service, yes, but the problem that arose was that once hired, they still have to do the same job, and physically, those that passed the "women's standard" but were not able to pass the "men's standard" were not up to the job physically. This is not a sexist, chauvanist slam, it's just the facts: Those particular women that met only the lower standard were not as effective in the positions they were in because of the double standard.

How does this relate? The point was made above that men and women approach the issue of self defense and defense of home differently. Men look at it pragmatically: Threat to home. Stop threat. End of discussion. Women look at it, as posted: Threat to home. What are ramifications?

I submit the thought that perhaps that latter is flawed and should be worked at to be trained out. Why? Because the threat to home will not hesitate while you consider the ramifications. Shoot to stop the threat. If the m****rf****r dies, he or she does so not because he/she was someone's baby, but because he/she made the decision to enter your home and pose a threat. He/she decided that someone was getting hurt or killed today. Your decision has to be that it will not be you. If it is otherwise, the ramifications are that your husband/boyfriend/significant other may be ordering your casket in the very near future. That's cold, it's not nice, and it's not friendly, but it has a much better chance of keeping you alive.

No, you don't want to kill anyone. Neither do the men here. We all need to recognize that possibility and when we slide our pistols into the holster in the morning, recognize that "today might be the day I have to use this and someone may die." If we cannot accept that reality, the gun's place is at home, in the safe, no matter what equipment you have attached between your legs.

No offense to anyone intended, just

Blessings,
B