George W. Bush's unelectable foreign policy

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  • turnandshoot4

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    Great posts in this thread Dross! I stalk you in the political threads because you always have something intresting and intelligent to say. Don't take it so personally. I wasn't avoiding your questions, I didn't know you wanted to know so badly!;) Here the are the answers you crave.

    No, you're still ignoring my points.

    There is a technique used in argument and discussion. It involves using hypothetical situations to define people's assumptions. Often positions are so complex they must be simplified in order to get at the underlying values and assumptions and make the interaction productive.

    An example:

    A: I'm against world policing and unjust wars.
    B: In all circumstances?
    A: Yes.
    B: Okay, let's say your country was attacked by a group of terrorists with no real coutry but rather a reigon. Would you go to war then?


    Now we find out where the person is coming from. Some possible responses:

    A: No, I still wouldn't go to war.
    B: Why?
    A: Because it is not a country that attacked us but rather a religion. I will never support a holy war.

    You see, we've learned something. Here's an example of some non questions that are really just attempts to avoid getting to the point, or more often, to avoid the weakness of a position being revealed.

    What it appears you meant when you said, "I love this game," is that you weren't going to answer any questions in a way that revealed the weaknesses of your argument.

    While you played the game of hypotheticals I gave you what is really happening. We don't need hypotheticals to show that more Americans, the best of us Americans, have died fighting a country that MIGHT have been supporting terroism. Not that MIGHT have WMDs, because they didn't. They were no imminent threat to the U.S. or the world.

    Here is my stance all mapped out. Thanks for asking!
    But now, that's happened anyway, right here for everyone to read.
    Again, there is no winning on the interent. Just talking.:cool:

    Dross I pose this question. What do you propose to do about the Hakani network?

    Do you support G.W. not invading Iran? They supported and continue to support terrorist networks?

    Do you support not invading Georgia, our allies, when they were attacked by Russia?

    Lybia?

    Arguably the southern border is the most dangerous in the country. Kidnapping is the highest there as well. Do you support the invasion of Mexico? This is the most direct threat to Americans personal well being. Furthermore, would you support it if the drug trafficing cartels were classified as "terrorists?"

    Does my mapping out my support of NOT going to war with various countries show anything?
     

    dross

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    Dross I pose this question. What do you propose to do about the Hakani network?

    Complex problem. I don't have a quick or an easy answer. I support hot metal flying through their bodies at high velocity until figure it out.

    Do you support G.W. not invading Iran? They supported and continue to support terrorist networks?

    Yes, I support the U.S. not invading Iran for a variety of reasons. Supporting terrorists might be a reason to invade them, but there are other factors involved.

    Do you support not invading Georgia, our allies, when they were attacked by Russia?

    Yes, I support not invading Georgia. There are other factors involved that make invading Georgia a bad idea.


    I did not support invading Lybia. Gaddafi had shown us that he was not going to be a threat to us.



    Arguably the southern border is the most dangerous in the country. Kidnapping is the highest there as well. Do you support the invasion of Mexico? This is the most direct threat to Americans personal well being. Furthermore, would you support it if the drug trafficing cartels were classified as "terrorists?"

    I don't agree with your assumptions that Mexico is a threat to our well being. I do not think we should invade Mexico. I would not support classifying cartels as terrorists, I think "terrorist" is a stupid word that has little value. Should we classify the cartels as an enemy of the country? I'm not sure if that's a good idea just yet.

    Does my mapping out my support of NOT going to war with various countries show anything?

    Yes, it shows that you still won't address my points.

    I answered yours point by point. I'll answer follow up questions if you like. I can defend my positions, I don't have to run or hide.

    Perhaps tonight when I have more time, I'll post all the weaknesses of my positions. In the real world, every position has strengths and weaknesses. Hiding and playing games doesn't change that.
     
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    88GT

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    The Bush administration heard what they wanted. The rest of the world (including Hans Blix) knew they didn't have WMDs.

    Point of order: the rest of the world didn't "know." In fact, the rest of the world was :hooked: just like Bush. What you propose involves them lying or you being incorrect. Although either one is just as likely, I'm gonna go with the latter for this particular case.
     

    88GT

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    So do you still take issue with his stance?

    I take issue with the fact that when the rubber meets the road, I don't feel confident that as CiC he will exercise the authority he has to return fire.

    It's wonderful that he practically accepts the president's authority to engage the military. What's not wonderful is that I doubt he'll be that president. I would love to be wrong.



    How could he be held accountable when there was no specific goal or plan laid out to begin with? What was he held accountable to? I think that's the real issue. And it absolutely would reduce cost if it reduces duration.
    Define accountability. I don't want to talk in circles because you start being obtuse again.

    And how do you equate a formal declaration of war with a shorter duration? We could have been in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan in 2 weeks. That we weren't has nothing to do with a lack of a Congressional declaration of war.
     

    turnandshoot4

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    Complex problem. I don't have a quick or an easy answer. I support hot metal flying through their bodies at high velocity until figure it out.



    Yes, I support the U.S. not invading Iran for a variety of reasons. Supporting terrorists might be a reason to invade them, but there are other factors involved.



    Yes, I support not invading Georgia. There are other factors involved that make invading Georgia a bad idea.



    I did not support invading Lybia. Gaddafi had shown us that he was not going to be a threat to us.





    I don't agree with your assumptions that Mexico is a threat to our well being. I do not think we should invade Mexico. I would not support classifying cartels as terrorists, I think "terrorist" is a stupid word that has little value. Should we classify the cartels as an enemy of the country? I'm not sure if that's a good idea just yet.



    Yes, it shows that you still won't address my points.

    I answered yours point by point. I'll answer follow up questions if you like. I can defend my positions, I don't have to run or hide.

    Perhaps tonight when I have more time, I'll post all the weaknesses of my positions. In the real world, every position has strengths and weaknesses. Hiding and playing games doesn't change that.

    So what is your point? Please give me a question. No scenarios or anything else. I still haven't seen the question that I haven't answered. I tried to answer your scenario in red. I showed my position on war.
     

    turnandshoot4

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    Point of order: the rest of the world didn't "know." In fact, the rest of the world was :hooked: just like Bush. What you propose involves them lying or you being incorrect. Although either one is just as likely, I'm gonna go with the latter for this particular case.

    And when the inspector of Iraq said they had no WMDs?

    Please show where the rest of the world (aside from the UK) thought they had WMDs.

    Look for anything on Hans Blix.
     

    dross

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    So what is your point? Please give me a question. No scenarios or anything else. I still haven't seen the question that I haven't answered. I tried to answer your scenario in red. I showed my position on war.

    If Bush had declared that Iraq did not have WMD, what would have been the reaction from a) the prominent Democrats of that time, b) the media, and c) the general public.

    If Bush had made the statement above (no WMD in Iraq) and then then a terrorist group had attacked the U.S. with nerve gas they obtained from Iraq, would you and others who criticized him for the war defend him, saying that there is no way anyone could have know that Iraq had nerve gas?

    Without 100% certainty, given two choices that potentially can lead to great tragedy, how do you choose between them?
     

    jeremy

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    I'd like to clear up a few things regarding Ron Paul's beliefs on this issue. Here is an article written by him: Violating the Constitution With an Illegal War by Rep. Ron Paul

    He is against the War in Afghanistan, yet he voted to pass the Bill that sent my Brethren there... :popcorn:

    I will give you that he Voted against H.J. Res 114 though...

    If he was so dedicated to pulling Troops out of the Wars We are currently in all he has to do is introduce Counter Legislation to S.J Res 23 and H.J. Res 114 which are the 2 pieces of Congressional Legislation that sent us there...
    Here he voted to authorize military force against those responsible for the September 11th attacks: Bill Text - 107th Congress (2001-2002) - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

    And in 2007 he introduced a bill to authorize the president to

    H.R. 3216 [110th]: Marque and Reprisal Act of 2007 (GovTrack.us)
    He is against War, but yet he is all for allowing the POTUS the ability to establish Piracy?! :dunno:
     

    dross

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    He is against War, but yet he is all for allowing the POTUS the ability to establish Piracy?! :dunno:

    Are you suggesting that a Letter of Marque is authorizing piracy? Are you further suggesting that RP thinks that power belongs to the President?
     

    steveh_131

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    I take issue with the fact that when the rubber meets the road, I don't feel confident that as CiC he will exercise the authority he has to return fire.

    It's wonderful that he practically accepts the president's authority to engage the military. What's not wonderful is that I doubt he'll be that president. I would love to be wrong.

    I suppose that's simply a matter of opinion. His voting record (to me) shows that he has already exercised what authority he has to take the fight to our enemies.

    And I certainly prefer his restraint to that exhibited by past presidents.

    Define accountability. I don't want to talk in circles because you start being obtuse again.

    And how do you equate a formal declaration of war with a shorter duration? We could have been in and out of Iraq and Afghanistan in 2 weeks. That we weren't has nothing to do with a lack of a Congressional declaration of war.

    Our representatives in Congress are supposed to more closely model the values of their constituents than a president can. Each will be held accountable (to some extent) for their votes for or against a declaration of war. I suppose I consider it to be accountable in the same way that the rest of our legislative process is designed to work.

    It's not a perfect system, but each representative in Congress answers to their voters for the way they vote on any issue and I don't think that a war declaration should be any exception. I want my views on foreign policy and war to be represented just like every other issue.
     

    jeremy

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    Are you suggesting that a Letter of Marque is authorizing piracy?
    Is not a Letter of Marque and Reprisal a government license authorizing a person to attack and capture enemy vessels, and bring them before admiralty courts for condemnation and sale?!


    Is not a Privateer required to have a Letter of Marque and Reprisal from a National Government?!


    Is not a Privateer without a Letter of Marque and Reprisal a Pirate?!


    I mean that is the Historical and International excepted answer to a Letter of Marque, Right?!


    Am I missing something?!:popcorn:
    Are you further suggesting that RP thinks that power belongs to the President?
    Huh...
    I never would have made the connection... :dunno:
     

    dross

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    Is not a Letter of Marque and Reprisal a government license authorizing a person to attack and capture enemy vessels, and bring them before admiralty courts for condemnation and sale?!

    Yes. Though I don't think we have an admiralty court here.


    Is not a Privateer required to have a Letter of Marque and Reprisal from a National Government?!

    Yes.


    Is not a Privateer without a Letter of Marque and Reprisal a Pirate?!

    No. A person without a Letter of Marque is a pirate. A privateer has a letter of Marque by definition.

    Is not a soldier who murders someone a murderer? That doesn't make a soldier a murderer by definition.


    I mean that is the Historical and International excepted answer to a Letter of Marque, Right?!

    More or less, yes.


    Am I missing something?!:popcorn:

    Yes. Premises that support your conclusion.

    Huh...
    I never would have made the connection... :dunno:

    If Ron Paul thinks the President can issue Letters of Marque, then he hasn't read the Constitution.

    And according to your logic, the Constitution authorizes piracy.
     

    steveh_131

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    I did almost a Decade ago...

    Why do you always assume that anyone who does not agree with you is an illiterate idiot... :popcorn:

    I wasn't being disrespectful with my suggestion.

    His article contains the answers to the questions that you asked about him, so I figured you must not have read it or did not remember it if you did.
     
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