Caliber wars redux

[wesnellans]

I know this has probably been rehashed more times than anyone can count, but I don't find this angle in the search, SO.....

Quick math comparisons between 9mm and 45 lead me to believe that:

1 - Frontal area of 45 ACP is 60% greater than 9mm.

2 - Velocity vs mass only goes so far: a 135 gr (+p?) 9mm loading traveling at 1050 fps calculates to 141,750 gr/fps (whatever unit you wish to convert that to) in momentum , while a 230 gr 45 acp traveling at 750 fps calculates to 172,500 gr/fps in momentum.

So how on earth is it that the 9mm is even being brought up as comparable to 45 acp for "stopping power"? I'd have to think that 60% more frontal area (before any expansion, thinking that a similar load will expand similarly in each), plus 18% greater momentum, HAS to equal more damage to the target, hence more effective wounding.

I remember from years ago the matches I shot where a 45 guy would set up the pepper poppers. 9mm guys had to fire 2-3 rounds in the same areas to knock the poppers over, while the 45 guys needed one shot in the same area. How is this different than the damage inflicted on the bg?

See what I started?

 

[vwfred69]

I believe it comes down to the slight difference in expansion of defensive rounds, and how far do you really need to penetrate to get the job done.

 

[hemicharger]

 

[eldirector]

Unless it is a S&W .500 Magnum , it is just a flesh wound.

 

[chezuki]

 

[wesnellans]

Man, that's just not fair!

 

[indygamerguy]

For what it's worth, I'd take any caliber available as opposed to nothing.

Owned 9mm, 40, 45acp, 22wmr, 22lr . if I can find it on a store shelf in this panic state then I'd gladly buy a gun chambered in it


Preference wise though I like 45acp. The recoil feels different from the others I've shot and my follow ups seem better

 

[hooky]

I would prefer to not be shot by either of them.

 

[chezuki]

I carry 9mm. Specifically 125gr CORBON +P. Some people feel they need to carry something larger, I do not.

 

[tetsujin79]

Frontal area of 45 ACP is 60% greater than 9mm.

How'd you figure that out? I'm actually curious, I don't care about arguing.

 

[wesnellans]

The area (mind you, I didn't figure curvature in this, just the area of the circular portion) of a circle is pi times the square of the radius. Simply took the halved diameters for 9mm and 45 and plugged in the numbers.

 

[chezuki]

How'd you figure that out? I'm actually curious, I don't care about arguing.

It's magic math. I just chuckled and ignored it.

 

[eldirector]

Actually, he is correct.

9MM is 60% of the cross-sectional area of a .45. (0.098" to 0.158").

The "momentum" is what threw me. I've never seen it expressed like that. I've always used muzzle energy in ft-lbs.

Foot Pound Calculations
With the OP's numbers:
9mm (135 grains at 1050 fps) = 330.5 ft-lbs
.45 (230 grains at 750 fps) = 287.2 ft-lbs

So, in that comparison, the 9mm WINS, especially if you can get all that energy to dump into the target (a good expanding bullet).

And this is exactly why caliber wars are fairly pointless. There are MANY other variables. Most of which are much more important than the diameter of the projectile.

Besides, *I* wouldn't want to stand in front of ANY of them!

 

[45calibre]

not this **** again.

 

[eldirector]

not this **** again.

Well, by your username, we know where YOU stand.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I would prefer to not be shot by either of them.

Besides, *I* wouldn't want to stand in front of ANY of them!

JFC applies here too, in my estimation.

 

[HenryWallace]

9 for me. It's what I know.
I liken it to Electricity.
The more Volts you have,
the less Amps you'll need.
Cause the eventuality in this debate is Power for Capacity.

 

[HoosierHandgunner]

.38 Special for me! I know, its a weaker round, but I love the gun and I hit well with it

 

[45calibre]

Well, by your username, we know where YOU stand.

LOL it's funny because when i first registered i was all into .45 ACP because i didn't know any better and thought it was greater than others. My how times have changed, im all about 9mm now.

 

[JLL101]

If your premise was correct that the size of the round and its velocity were the only factors in STOPPING a bad guy, then of course the 45 acp would be the round to use. But why stop at the 45 acp, why not use only a 44 magnum or larger caliber? According to an article in Guns Magazine i read recently now every major 9mm manufacturer has at least one 9mm round that meets or exceeds the FBI protocol for penetration of hard objects, expansion of the round and penetrates to their specified depth. And a well placed 9mm round that can do this is going to stop the bad guy pretty much as often as any well placed 45 acp round. It truly is about STOPPING the bad guy, it is not about how big a hole you make in the guy.

It has been a few years since I have done a web search, but as I recall from a published chart that the highest effective stopping rate for highest scoring 9mm ammo was 91% while for the 45 cal it was 94% with rounds shot out of a 4 or 5 inch barrel. I am not sure you need an elephant gun to kill a mouse.

The chart was about One Shot Stopping Percentages. This document was titled "Handgun Cartridges Power Chart" and was part of an article I read on line several years ago. The Chart lists calibers from .22LR to .45ACP. I will provide you with 5 selected calibers including the 9mm and the .45ACP starting with the .22LR. Unfortunately, I did not copy the WEB address to the document as I now normally do and I am unsure of what search words were used to obtain this information. With that said the chart had the following statement at the bottom; "The above data is drawn from various sources including the book Handgun Stopping Power by Marshall and Sanow, and various articles in magazines such as Handguns." The following are selected rounds out of the chart.

.22LR ,CCI Stinger 32gr LHP, One Shot Stop % = 34% , 6" Colt
.380ACP, Federal Hydra-Shok 90gr JHP, One Shot Stop % = 69%, 3.2" Walther
9x19, Cor-Bon +P 115gr JHP, One Shot Stop % = 91%, 4" Glock
.40S&W, Rem. Golden Saber 165 gr JHP, One Shot Stop % = 94%, 4" S&W
.45ACP, Federal Hydra-Shok 230gr JHP, One Shot Stop % = 94%, 5" Colt


The numbers indicate to me that there is nominal stopping power difference between the 9mm, the ,40S&W and the .45ACP. Also note that the "sissy" .380ACP has a One Shot Stop % of 69%. I would not want to be shot with a "sissy" round with a Stop Percentage of 69%. Again these numbers are a few years old thus you should do your own analysis and update accordingly.

In the September 2012 issue of the American Rifleman magazine an article titled Handgun Stopping Power, the author, Richard Mann a Field Editor, compared the ballistics of calibers from .22 to .45 ACP. The author fired 100 rounds into 10% ballistic gelatin. 23 of these rounds were 9mm. He tested for velocity at 10 feet, penetration and expansion.

He went through the logic of his protocol for determining what performance results were satisfactory in his opinion. He concluded that the minimum velocity of a round should be 1000 feet per second, that penetration should be at least 13" and expansion should be at least 1.5 times the original diameter of the round irrespective of your caliber of choice. Another approach he suggested for using his data was to compare you favorite round to the averages for its caliber. Obviously when one is analyzing raw data you can develop your own criteria and analyze accordingly.


For the rounds tested, his results showed about 1/3 of the 100 rounds tested met his suggested standard. Relative to the 9mm rounds tested, his results disclosed that 11 of the 23 rounds tested (including multiple same rounds in differentlength barrels) met or exceeded his specifications.

Using his specs the following 9 mm rounds met his specs:
the Corbon 100-gr +P;
2 DoubleTap rounds,
a 80-gr and a 124-gr;
Federal 115-gr JHP;
Remington 115-gr JHP;
Remington 124-gr Golden Saber +P;
2 Speer 124-gr HP;
Winchester 124-gr JPDX1 HP;
and Wilson Combat 124-gr XTP.

Some of these same rounds did not meet his standards when shot out of a medium or short barreled gun.

It is not clear to me at all that a 45 acp is in any way a significantly more "powerful" stopping round that a high quality 9mm round with both being properly placed into the bad guy's torso.