Suck it Prius owners, Mercedes E-Class luxury sedan gets better mpg!

[comanche]

in our family we have 2 prius and one Jetta TDI. The fact is the prius gets better milage. The 2010 prius, in summer, gets 54 mpg. The ride is a wash between all of them. Diesel fuel is higher than gas which really brings down the mpg savings. I bought my wife the prius because of her high milage job. The 2010 prius already has 120,000 miles on it because of her job. The maintenance, other than routine tires breaks and wipers, has been zero. For the record, I don't like the prius and always drive my car when we go places but from someone with experience with both the Jetta and Prius, hands down the prius. Oh, the Jetta does have a lot of trunk room.

 

[jkaetz]

Thanks for the information. I am absolutely not an expert on diesel by any means, and did not realize that one could mitigate against gelling. I will have to do some research. I appreciate the info, was also not aware of Mercedes' other offerings.

We currently own a diesel ML350, purchased for the combination of fuel economy and power. Didn't test the -15 we had but it starts up at sustained single digit temps with no additives. Just takes a few seconds (maybe 10 instead of the usual 1 or 2) longer for the glow plugs to warm up when it's that cold. We drive it to Wisconsin to see family at least once a year and get around 30 mpg. We got the chance to drive a gasoline version of the same model year while getting service done and it struggled to get into the 20 mpg range. Diesels are monsters in MPG because they don't have to use many RPM to have their max torque available. I think ours sees max torque around 1800 RPM. They only really rev higher because transmissions don't have more gears to run through. A CVT would be a good mate for a diesel engine but I don't think they can handle the torque output of diesels.

 

[Dolton916]

My wife drives a 2012 Scion xD Payed $15.5K, has 160K miles and has averaged over its lifetime 44mpg and ZERO maintenance other than Oil changes,it's still on the original brakes! four doors, hatch with auto a/c power everything bluetooth. On a recent wrestling trip it was getting 38 mpg with the cruise set at 85mph, 2 adults and two teens.

She wants to give it to my daughter and get the TDI Jetta, but I think we'll get another of these.

We run a fleet of mobile service trucks and the deciding factor on economy/cost to run is purchase price. The Prius loses right from the get.

 

[LEaSH]

Does anyone have any hard science source or link describing the lack of lubricity in the Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel. So many comments on boards and independent websites, but I'd like to hear from you guys, too. Not meaning to hi-jack another thread.

I'd like to see what I can do to keep going for a long long time. But I won't add stuff to my fuel that isn't going to help - or worse - harm fuel delivery components.

I am using Power Service arctic blend (white bottle) this time of year. No negative info about it of course. Just didn't know if anyone here likes using Howes or any other stuff.

 

[melensdad]

Does anyone have any hard science source or link describing the lack of lubricity in the Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel. . .

I don't but honestly I don't think there is ANY issue in the newer engines (last 8 or 10 years).

I remember when the fuel started changing over and the older engines were not approved for the low sulfur fuels. The engine manufacturers changed their designs and adapted to the newer fuels and I've not had any problems. I owned both types of engines and even my antique tractor engines had no issues, currently I own a couple different diesels that are rated for the low sulfur and don't worry about lubricity additives.

 

[Bigtanker]

No surprise. Last year a new VW Passat diesel (non hybrid) averaged 78 mpg and set Guinness world record.


VW sets world record for fuel economy with clean diesel tech

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

If money weren't any object to us - I'd SERIOUSLY consider looking at a VW Passat TDI and/or any of the Merc diesel offerings.

*sigh*

Those German cars sure are great when they're under warranty - but I think there are little bits of software coded in the things that, once they're 50 miles out of warranty, they slowly self-destruct. And are pricy to repair. I'm sure they're "less" costly to repair now than they were 15+ years ago since both VW and Merc manufacture so many cars here in the US these days - but there's still a whole lot of parts that have to be imported... Costly!

-J-

 

[HeadlessRoland]

We currently own a diesel ML350, purchased for the combination of fuel economy and power. Didn't test the -15 we had but it starts up at sustained single digit temps with no additives. Just takes a few seconds (maybe 10 instead of the usual 1 or 2) longer for the glow plugs to warm up when it's that cold. We drive it to Wisconsin to see family at least once a year and get around 30 mpg. We got the chance to drive a gasoline version of the same model year while getting service done and it struggled to get into the 20 mpg range. Diesels are monsters in MPG because they don't have to use many RPM to have their max torque available. I think ours sees max torque around 1800 RPM. They only really rev higher because transmissions don't have more gears to run through. A CVT would be a good mate for a diesel engine but I don't think they can handle the torque output of diesels.

Suddenly the better gas mileage makes a lot of sense. So because the engine has better rotational output and at lower revolutions, it requires a lower rate of energy consumption? Also finding that diesel packs more energy than the equivalent volume of gasoline.

 

[shibumiseeker]

Suddenly the better gas mileage makes a lot of sense. So because the engine has better rotational output and at lower revolutions, it requires a lower rate of energy consumption? Also finding that diesel packs more energy than the equivalent volume of gasoline.

Plus higher compression squeezes more overall efficiency out of the burn. Most gasoline engines tuned well are only pulling about 25% conversion of fuel to power. Diesels can be over 30%.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Plus higher compression squeezes more overall efficiency out of the burn. Most gasoline engines tuned well are only pulling about 25% conversion of fuel to power. Diesels can be over 30%.

So, aside from the slightly higher fuel cost and the mitigateable gelling of fuel, are there any real drawbacks? I mean, why don't more people use diesel? It sounds really good and much better than gasoline in a couple ways.

 

[shibumiseeker]

So, aside from the slightly higher fuel cost and the mitigateable gelling of fuel, are there any real drawbacks? I mean, why don't more people use diesel? It sounds really good and much better than gasoline in a couple ways.

Because the EPA back in the mid 80s killed the small diesel market in the US and for a LONG time there weren't any real good options for us lower class.

My first car, bought new when I was in HS was a 1986 Ford Escort wagon with a 2.0 liter Isuzu diesel engine. That thing would haul me and three friends on road trips and get 45mpg. Of course, it had no acceleration and smelled like a diesel, but I think I paid $8500 for it brand new off the lot (that's about $15000 in today's dollars).

I also owned a 1984 (I think) VW Rabbit Diesel that did better than 40mpg. And an 81 Isuzu P'up diesel small pickup that would do 32mpg. Then after the mid 80s you could no longer buy these cars with diesels because of the EPA regulations.

So the market died because they weren't available unless you had $$$ to spend.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Because the EPA back in the mid 80s killed the small diesel market in the US and for a LONG time there weren't any real good options for us lower class.

My first car, bought new when I was in HS was a 1986 Ford Escort wagon with a 2.0 liter Isuzu diesel engine. That thing would haul me and three friends on road trips and get 45mpg. Of course, it had no acceleration and smelled like a diesel, but I think I paid $8500 for it brand new off the lot (that's about $15000 in today's dollars).

I also owned a 1984 (I think) VW Rabbit Diesel that did better than 40mpg. And an 81 Isuzu P'up diesel small pickup that would do 32mpg. Then after the mid 80s you could no longer buy these cars with diesels because of the EPA regulations.

So the market died because they weren't available unless you had $$$ to spend.

That's some amazing mpg. So sick of government intervention, especially the EPA. Thanks for the clarification. I guess I've pretty much de-railed this into a 'school me on diesel' thread. A country where we can't even purchase more efficient modes of transport because it produces 'too much' pollution or exhaust gases. Ridiculous.

 

[SERparacord]

That's some amazing mpg. So sick of government intervention, especially the EPA. Thanks for the clarification. I guess I've pretty much de-railed this into a 'school me on diesel' thread. A country where we can't even purchase more efficient modes of transport because it produces 'too much' pollution or exhaust gases. Ridiculous.

Every turn of the Prius electric motor creates ozone. Same with wind generators.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Every turn of the Prius electric motor creates ozone. Same with wind generators.

The energy put into producing the turbines and towers of wind mills is so lopsided and kills so much wildlife I don't know how they even made it into widespread usage. Subsidies. Ridiculous.

 

[SERparacord]

The energy put into producing the turbines and towers of wind mills is so lopsided and kills so much wildlife I don't know how they even made it into widespread usage. Subsidies. Ridiculous.

Progressive ain't we.

 

[shibumiseeker]

That's some amazing mpg. So sick of government intervention, especially the EPA. Thanks for the clarification. I guess I've pretty much de-railed this into a 'school me on diesel' thread. A country where we can't even purchase more efficient modes of transport because it produces 'too much' pollution or exhaust gases. Ridiculous.

Well, to be fair, the smoke coming from those smaller diesels was pretty bad, just a moderate acceleration put out a cloud of black smoke which is way worse pollution as far as lung cancer goes.

What sorta pisses me off now is those older engines (gas and diesel) were dogs when it came to power. My 2005 Toyota Corolla gets 38mpg and is about 800lbs lighter than that old Escort, and has almost twice as much power. Imagine how good its fuel economy could be if it had a smaller engine that made less power but had the same acceleration as my old Escort. There's no reason that a modern engine couldn't do 60mpg if the driver were willing to accept 0-60 times that are sedentary. I would, but then I've always been a bit of a hyper-miler. But considering how much of a drag race it seems to be every time you leave a light and how many people are under full power until the last second coming up to a light, the average person really doesn't care about fuel economy.

 

[Leadeye]

Car tech has changed so much over the years, back in the late 60s if somebody told me you could produce a 300 hp engine that still got 30 mpg I would have said you were crazy. New cars do it every day now. I've not had the experience of pulling up next to a Prius in my rumbling, gasoline rich exhaust smelling, 1968 jalopy, and exchanging looks. Looking forward to that day.

 

[HeadlessRoland]

Well, to be fair, the smoke coming from those smaller diesels was pretty bad, just a moderate acceleration put out a cloud of black smoke which is way worse pollution as far as lung cancer goes.

What sorta pisses me off now is those older engines (gas and diesel) were dogs when it came to power. My 2005 Toyota Corolla gets 38mpg and is about 800lbs lighter than that old Escort, and has almost twice as much power. Imagine how good its fuel economy could be if it had a smaller engine that made less power but had the same acceleration as my old Escort. There's no reason that a modern engine couldn't do 60mpg if the driver were willing to accept 0-60 times that are sedentary. I would, but then I've always been a bit of a hyper-miler. But considering how much of a drag race it seems to be every time you leave a light and how many people are under full power until the last second coming up to a light, the average person really doesn't care about fuel economy.

Yeah, but it's not as though there's some established safe non-lung cancer pollution level, so why grant a government agency such as the EPA the over-reach to regulate it simply because there were more emissions than the next-best gasoline?

Good point on the engines. We've been effectively hobbled and stymied in our automotive choices. Thanks, EPA!
I value fuel economy very much, as I currently get 15-16 mpg regardless of any condition.

 

[ghuns]

Those German cars sure are great when they're under warranty - but I think there are little bits of software coded in the things that, once they're 50 miles out of warranty, they slowly self-destruct. And are pricy to repair. I'm sure they're "less" costly to repair now than they were 15+ years ago since both VW and Merc manufacture so many cars here in the US these days - but there's still a whole lot of parts that have to be imported... Costly!

As an Audi owner, I can verify that you are correct. Well, except the less costly to repair nowadays. They are still expensive as hell.

I would love to get an Audi A4 just like mine, only with the 1.9L diesel, or better yet, the 2.5L. But those are only sold in Europe.

 

[jkaetz]

If money weren't any object to us - I'd SERIOUSLY consider looking at a VW Passat TDI and/or any of the Merc diesel offerings.

*sigh*

Those German cars sure are great when they're under warranty - but I think there are little bits of software coded in the things that, once they're 50 miles out of warranty, they slowly self-destruct. And are pricy to repair. I'm sure they're "less" costly to repair now than they were 15+ years ago since both VW and Merc manufacture so many cars here in the US these days - but there's still a whole lot of parts that have to be imported... Costly!

-J-

Is there any modern car that's inexpensive to repair if something significant breaks and you have to see a dealer or other service shop?