☆New SMITH & WESSON M&P22 Magnum

[JBLee]

Yes, I'd agree.
It's at least 1 louder

I was thinking 3, like the number of licks it takes to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop.

 

[DadSmith]

Kinda funny smith wants to be Keltec when they grow up.

 

[two70]

I have the Walther and consider it to be one of my favorite pistols. It’s reliable, extremely accurate, and ergonomically perfect for my hand shape. I will certainly give the new S&W a lustfull going over and there’s a really good chance I’ll buy one, but mostly because I’m having so much fun with the Walther. Those of you here giving the Walther a black eye, do you own one? Also higher capacity magazines are available for the WMP if that’s your beef. I have had two PMR’s and even though they are a lot of fun, the WMP kicked mine to the curb.

I'm sure the Walther is fine pistol, it certainly appeared to be well made from the one I handled. However, Walther made some questionable design choices that make it difficult for it to compete of which capacity is only one. The much bigger issue is the weight, it weighs nearly twice as much as its competitors. That doesn't make it a bad pistol, but it does make it hard for the WMP to compete.

 

[Mgderf]

Interesting video, but did not really answer the question (s) regarding innovation.
I have a PMR 30 and haven't experienced any issues, but full disclosure, I don't have a lot of trigger time or ammunition down the barrel.

 

[Dingleberry]

Kinda funny smith wants to be Keltec when they grow up.

Right?! They are like the Communist China of gun manufacturers. Copy everything

 

[Tombs]

Right?! They are like the Communist China of gun manufacturers. Copy everything

Except they're doing what everyone wanted. Keltec comes up with great ideals, but they're never available and they're made at a quality level lower than a nerf gun.

S&W picked up the ideals and produced a much higher quality firearm using the unique design concepts from keltec, and they have the manufacturing capacity to actually put things on the shelf.

I've been extremely pleased with my S&W M&P 5.7. I'd personally consider it a nicer firearm than my original FN USG I picked up in 2007. It's certainly a better shooting and carry experience.

 

[kaveman]

I'll probably end up with one eventually but really I don't see where it does much my two KelTecs don't other than cost and weigh twice as much as either. Both the Keltecs are late model I gave $350 apiece for and they weigh 14oz unloaded. And they're perfectly reliable(spend 30 bucks on a loader, sheesh). But they won't easily accept a dot so the Smith is probably in my future.

Two things I HATE about .22Mag,....

The COST! $0.34/rd for rimfire is ridiculous. I've never paid that for 5.56. It is NOT as claimed in every video 'affordable'. I have been searching for yrs for 'affordable' .22Mag,.....typical gunshow prices are $25-30 per 50 rd box. That's 50-60 cents per rd folks. Finally found some Maxi-Mag HP in the 125rd milk cartons at WM not long ago,.....two of those traded over the counter for $63 and change. That's the best price I've seen in yrs of searching, equivilent to the BEST price I can find online. That's $0.25 per rd. 'Affordable'? Compared to everything else, maybe, but compared to what it actually is and does, no.

The POWER! It's all blast and very little ballistic gain. Basically .22Mag from a handgun is equal to .22LR from a rifle. Every video I watched following this S&W release crowed about that 2000fps,....which ain't happening from a pistol barrel. I watched three or four vids the other day, some 20min+, and not a one gave actual or even estimated velocity from the Smith although EVERY vid gushed about the 2000fps on the friggin' box. You're paying 10x cost for a couple hundred fps and a fireball.

 

[Tactically Fat]

I'll probably end up with one eventually but really I don't see where it does much my two KelTecs don't other than cost and weigh twice as much as either. Both the Keltecs are late model I gave $350 apiece for and they weigh 14oz unloaded. And they're perfectly reliable(spend 30 bucks on a loader, sheesh). But they won't easily accept a dot so the Smith is probably in my future.

Two things I HATE about .22Mag,....

The COST! $0.34/rd for rimfire is ridiculous. I've never paid that for 5.56. It is NOT as claimed in every video 'affordable'. I have been searching for yrs for 'affordable' .22Mag,.....typical gunshow prices are $25-30 per 50 rd box. That's 50-60 cents per rd folks. Finally found some Maxi-Mag HP in the 125rd milk cartons at WM not long ago,.....two of those traded over the counter for $63 and change. That's the best price I've seen in yrs of searching, equivilent to the BEST price I can find online. That's $0.25 per rd. 'Affordable'? Compared to everything else, maybe, but compared to what it actually is and does, no.

The POWER! It's all blast and very little ballistic gain. Basically .22Mag from a handgun is equal to .22LR from a rifle. Every video I watched following this S&W release crowed about that 2000fps,....which ain't happening from a pistol barrel. I watched three or four vids the other day, some 20min+, and not a one gave actual or even estimated velocity from the Smith although EVERY vid gushed about the 2000fps on the friggin' box. You're paying 10x cost for a couple hundred fps and a fireball.

This ain't a pistol one buys out of "need" for most of us. And more than adequately touched on it: cost.

Way more expensive than 9mm and way less powerful than 9mm.

Plusses: capacity and fun. And could be a hell of a formidible weapon for those who physically cannot handle centerfire cartridges.

I'll hold out for an eventual carbine that takes these 30rd mags. :-D

 

[kaveman]

The 'new' S&W CMR30?

 

[DadSmith]

The COST! $0.34/rd for rimfire is ridiculous. I've never paid that for 5.56. It is NOT as claimed in every video 'affordable'. I have been searching for yrs for 'affordable' .22Mag,.....typical gunshow prices are $25-30 per 50 rd box. That's 50-60 cents per rd folks. Finally found some Maxi-Mag HP in the 125rd milk cartons at WM not long ago,.....two of those traded over the counter for $63 and change. That's the best price I've seen in yrs of searching, equivilent to the BEST price I can find online. That's $0.25 per rd. 'Affordable'? Compared to everything else, maybe, but compared to what it actually is and does, no.

When I went searching for a 22mag rifle I ended up buying the Ruger PC Carbine in 9mm.
The reason was exactly what you stated the cost for 22mag ammunition is a lot more than 9mm.
With 9mm I get a harder hitting, cheaper to shoot rifle that does exactly what I wanted the 22mag for.

 

[kaveman]

And you can always reload for it if you have to. With .22Mag you're stuck paying whatever they want you to pay. I don't dislike .22Mag,....I have four of them at the moment and have had others in the past. As a rifle rd it has a niche. As a pistol rd I think it preys on the general public's lack of ballistic knowledge and economic understanding. And I think that weakness is targeted specifically. Why else would you have things like NAA mini-revolvers?

But the .22Mag pistols are a hoot to shoot. No complaints about that. A 30rd 14oz blaster is something to reckon with,.......but this new Smith isn't that. That's the KelTec. I think the S&W falls short and I don't want to think that. I love the M&P line and between the Shields, the standard M&P and the rimfires I own over a dozen of them. Of course I'd like to have one of these but it's going to take a bunch of internal 'convincing'.

 

[two70]

I'll probably end up with one eventually but really I don't see where it does much my two KelTecs don't other than cost and weigh twice as much as either. Both the Keltecs are late model I gave $350 apiece for and they weigh 14oz unloaded. And they're perfectly reliable(spend 30 bucks on a loader, sheesh). But they won't easily accept a dot so the Smith is probably in my future.

Two things I HATE about .22Mag,....

The COST! $0.34/rd for rimfire is ridiculous. I've never paid that for 5.56. It is NOT as claimed in every video 'affordable'. I have been searching for yrs for 'affordable' .22Mag,.....typical gunshow prices are $25-30 per 50 rd box. That's 50-60 cents per rd folks. Finally found some Maxi-Mag HP in the 125rd milk cartons at WM not long ago,.....two of those traded over the counter for $63 and change. That's the best price I've seen in yrs of searching, equivilent to the BEST price I can find online. That's $0.25 per rd. 'Affordable'? Compared to everything else, maybe, but compared to what it actually is and does, no.

The POWER! It's all blast and very little ballistic gain. Basically .22Mag from a handgun is equal to .22LR from a rifle. Every video I watched following this S&W release crowed about that 2000fps,....which ain't happening from a pistol barrel. I watched three or four vids the other day, some 20min+, and not a one gave actual or even estimated velocity from the Smith although EVERY vid gushed about the 2000fps on the friggin' box. You're paying 10x cost for a couple hundred fps and a fireball.

I agree that those touting 2000 fps from a .22 mag pistol are very annoying, especially since a lot of loads won't do that from a rifle. However, saying that .22 mag in a pistol is just .22 LR from a rifle level is too much in the opposite direction. A .22 mag from a pistol with a 4"-5" barrel like this one is like a .22 LR from a rifle plus around an extra 200 fps, with better bullets, and in my experience, at least somewhat better reliability.

A .22 mag doesn't and shouldn't replace a 9mm for most people. Not every situation calls for a 9mm though. Most people are not going to opt for a 9mm to hunt small game, even though the ammo is cheaper. For me, I carry my PMR-30 when I'm working on my farm because I want a lightweight handgun that is well suited for varmint control but that can also double for self defense in the unlikely event that I need it. In some places on my farm I simply don't want to be lobbing 9mm around. It basically fills the exact role a .22 LR rifle would, plus a little more, all while being much lighter and less bulky. I do agree that a .22 mag pistol doesn't make a lot of sense for frequent plinking though it is a lot of fun.

 

[DadSmith]

I agree that those touting 2000 fps from a .22 mag pistol are very annoying, especially since a lot of loads won't do that from a rifle. However, saying that .22 mag in a pistol is just .22 LR from a rifle level is too much in the opposite direction. A .22 mag from a pistol with a 4"-5" barrel like this one is like a .22 LR from a rifle plus around an extra 200 fps, with better bullets, and in my experience, at least somewhat better reliability.

A .22 mag doesn't and shouldn't replace a 9mm for most people. Not every situation calls for a 9mm though. Most people are not going to opt for a 9mm to hunt small game, even though the ammo is cheaper. For me, I carry my PMR-30 when I'm working on my farm because I want a lightweight handgun that is well suited for varmint control but that can also double for self defense in the unlikely event that I need it. In some places on my farm I simply don't want to be lobbing 9mm around. It basically fills the exact role a .22 LR rifle would, plus a little more, all while being much lighter and less bulky. I do agree that a .22 mag pistol doesn't make a lot of sense for frequent plinking though it is a lot of fun.

22TCM just gets to, and maybe slightly over 2000fps with a 5" barrel. 22mag I haven't seen any ballistic tests that I recall. So I'm going to look that up now and see how close they get.

 

[two70]

22TCM just gets to, and maybe slightly over 2000fps with a 5" barrel. 22mag I haven't seen any ballistic tests that I recall. So I'm going to look that up now and see how close they get.

.22 Mag Ballistics by the inch

 

[marvin02]

Looks like a 9 inch barrel is needed to get to 2,000 fps.

 

[kaveman]

I'm gonna stick with '.22Mag in a pistol is just .22LR in a rifle'. Yes, you can maybe find a load where there's some added capacity for the Mag, but in general, the Mag pistol = LR rifle is pretty true. I'm taking 'rifle' to mean a barrel of 16-18" and a 'pistol' to be a 4" barrel. Add three or four inches to that 'pistol' barrel and Mag comes alive but then we're not talking about a typical 'pistol' anymore.

BBI is where I've done most of my comparisons. Look at the 40gr loads(the KelTec specifies 40gr for reliability). 22Mag in 4" and 22LR in 18" both hover right around 1250fps. Drop down to 30gr and the Mag pushes at 1450-1500fps. 32gr Stinger does the same in an 18" barrel.

Where it really dawned on me is the comparison in a short barrel revolver. I have two Taurus 2" barrel revolvers, one 8-shot 22Mag and one 9-shot 22LR. According to the BBI charts, both revolvers throw 40gr bullets at identical velocities,......except one throws 9rds from my 4' pile of 1.5c ammo and the other throws 8rds from my meager supply of 25c ammo. Anybody want to buy a Taurus 22Mag? Got one I don't need.

The 'blasty' one is more fun to shoot for the same reason firecrackers are fun.

 

[kaveman]

I'm not seeing the extra 200fps from the Mag pistol over an LR rifle. Maybe if you carefully pick a lightweight bullet, maybe? And another problem that gets glossed over,.....those 'better bullets'. The Mag might have honest-to-goodness JHP construction compared to the 'copper washed' HP of the LR, but for the most part those bullets are designed to expand at the rifle velocities, not the pistol velocities. Lotta good that 'better' bullet is gonna do you out of a pistol length barrel. Won't be any different than a FMJ or lead round nose on the target. When Paul Harrell posts up with a vid we can talk some more. He'll do it right with his velocity chart comparisons and meat targets.

Hey, 22LR performance in a 30rd pistol you can carry on your hip is nothing to sneeze at. I just get hung up on the cost,.......if I need the performace I reach for the 22LR rifle. If I need the convenience, a 22LR pistol is probably close enough. I just don't often see myself needing the combination of the two to the point that the ammo costs can be justified.

I stacked .22Mag ammo when it was 7c/rd and I had a 77/22M. That combo seemed reasonable but I sold the rifle. I keep the PMR30s because they're LIGHT with good triggers and 30rd mags that also happen to fit in my CMR30 RIFLE. As long as there's a rifle in the mix the 22Mag makes some sense,.....to me. The 22Mag 2" Taurus? No excuse for that one except that I was on a 22 revolver kick at the time and it came with a viridian green laser. Assumed there was more diff between 22Mag and 22LR at the time of purchase,....live and learn. There is a difference, but pretty much only in ammo cost. Ouch.

Now if Smith comes out with a companion rifle that takes the same magazine,.....and I don't think the rifle is less than the CMR30,.....I'll probably buy the pistol/rifle combo. Or if the Smith pistol drops down in price to near what I can pick up PMR30s for I'll probably try a Smith. But at the current 2:1 price of the gun, ammo cost notwithstanding, I most likely won't.

 

[two70]

I'm not seeing the extra 200fps from the Mag pistol over an LR rifle. Maybe if you carefully pick a lightweight bullet, maybe? And another problem that gets glossed over,.....those 'better bullets'. The Mag might have honest-to-goodness JHP construction compared to the 'copper washed' HP of the LR, but for the most part those bullets are designed to expand at the rifle velocities, not the pistol velocities. Lotta good that 'better' bullet is gonna do you out of a pistol length barrel. Won't be any different than a FMJ or lead round nose on the target. When Paul Harrell posts up with a vid we can talk some more. He'll do it right with his velocity chart comparisons and meat targets.

Hey, 22LR performance in a 30rd pistol you can carry on your hip is nothing to sneeze at. I just get hung up on the cost,.......if I need the performace I reach for the 22LR rifle. If I need the convenience, a 22LR pistol is probably close enough. I just don't often see myself needing the combination of the two to the point that the ammo costs can be justified.

I stacked .22Mag ammo when it was 7c/rd and I had a 77/22M. That combo seemed reasonable but I sold the rifle. I keep the PMR30s because they're LIGHT with good triggers and 30rd mags that also happen to fit in my CMR30 RIFLE. As long as there's a rifle in the mix the 22Mag makes some sense,.....to me. The 22Mag 2" Taurus? No excuse for that one except that I was on a 22 revolver kick at the time and it came with a viridian green laser. Assumed there was more diff between 22Mag and 22LR at the time of purchase,....live and learn. There is a difference, but pretty much only in ammo cost. Ouch.

Now if Smith comes out with a companion rifle that takes the same magazine,.....and I don't think the rifle is less than the CMR30,.....I'll probably buy the pistol/rifle combo. Or if the Smith pistol drops down in price to near what I can pick up PMR30s for I'll probably try a Smith. But at the current 2:1 price of the gun, ammo cost notwithstanding, I most likely won't.

I don't think an 18" barrel shooting Velocitors is all that accurate of a comparison for standard 40 grain .22 LR loads but the comparison is closer for heavier bullets. I've never had a .22 LR that even shot Velocitor well at all. You can find .22 mag loads that perform better than most .22 LR loads without too much trouble. There are also newer .22 mag loads designed for short barrels, though they are expensive. If you want expansion, then the lighter bullets can do it from a .22 mag pistol. Penetration is more important with small calibers and yes, JHP will do a better job of that than soft lead and similarly to a FMJ, if there were such a thing in .22 LR.

My main point though, was not that .22 mag from a pistol was significantly superior to .22 LR from a rifle though, it was that a .22 mag pistol can do the job that a .22 LR rifle can do in a lighter handier package. A .22 rifle is probably the first choice for small to medium varmint control at short ranges. That is also a role where a .22 mag pistol can work fairly well. It also has tougher bullets that allow for greater penetration when pressed into other roles that a .22 LR simply can't do. Once I get it fully set up and broken in, I'll probably transition to my S&W 5.7 as my farm/varmint pistol but then that ammo is even more expensive than .22 mag!

My PMR has had zero issues with sub 40 grain loads. In fact I've shot more 35 grain loads through it than anything else simply because they were cheap. It is however, much more accurate with 40 and 45 grain loads. Unfortunately, it has expensive tastes and shoots Gold Dots the best. Fortunately, I haven't need to shoot a lot of them and it shoots 45 grain Hornady almost as well.

 

[kaveman]

Pretty sure we're saying the same thing. I'll admit I look at CCI Mini and Maxi-Mags and little else. If I can't do it with those it need not be done. Last thing I want is a 22Mag that wants me to buy it even more expensive ammo.