Concealed Carry Setup Considerations

[Brian@ITC]

I wanted to share some with you how I carry and what I carry on a regular basis and hopefully challenge you to think about why you carry where you do. Now, the reason that I carry the way that I do is because through my personal training with unarmed combatives integrating the use of a gun, I have discovered that the 3 o’clock position and appendix carry is not for me because it limits my options. Nor do I personally advocate appendix carry for the average person. I feel that there are too many risks for those who cannot defend themselves with unarmed skills to carry this way. For those of you who have the skills to protect appendix carry, great, go for it.

In addition, I’ve gone to the ground with my tools in various places, etc. and have found that the 4 o’clock position is the best place for my gun. I normally don’t carry anything on my left side farther back than the 9 o’ clock position (which is my flashlight) because if I do go to the ground I don’t want to land on anything that might be at the 8-6 o’clock position. By limiting what is on my “backside” I can fall to the ground safely and still access my tools.

When carrying anything on a regular basis it is important to do so and keep every item in the same place for muscle memory purposes. I dress around how I carry.

As you decide where you are going to carry, you need to explore as many realistic scenarios as you can and improve from there. What I mean is, don’t assume that you will be on your feet. Maybe you start to move and you find yourself on your back. NOW WHAT?! It is very possible that you could end up on the ground for one reason or another and it isn’t a highly unlikely scenario. Pick one carry setup and stick with it.

Enough said, here’s the rest of the story…

http://youtu.be/z5Rzt_euxWs

 

[indiucky]

I am an average person and I have carried appendix carry for 20 years. It works for me and I wouldn't change now if I had to. That muscle memory thing I guess. Nice video and set up and very well done.

 

[marshallartist]

Having studied Judo since I was twelve years old I understand where he is coming from on some of this. I agree with avoiding the appendix and SOB carry positions. I've often thought they were too restrictive for my liking. I find his ideas on mag position interesting and may be worth doing a little experimenting.

One thing he touched on that I think 99% (or more) off CCW'ers neglect is traing for shoot from the ground. Maybe its because of my grappling background but I think it's more likely in a SD situation that you'll find yourself fighting from the ground, seated, etc. than firmly on both feet in the weaver stance. Of course live fire training doing this can be risky as you might cover a part of your body with the muzzle of your weapon so I'm not suggesting anyone rush out an do this. One of the Gunsite tactical pistol videos has a section on this that's worth checking out.

Just my

 

[Brian@ITC]

marshallartist,

We teach shooting from the ground in our Integrated Concealed Carry course and on our Advanced Pistol Fighting DVD. We've come up with a method of shooting from supine that you will not sweep yourself with the muzzle while remaining in as safe of a position you can be while on the ground.

It is amazing what you can learn when you train and figures things out!

 

[netsecurity]

I definitely need to take a pistol class. I am a competent shooter, but haven't practiced anything else nearly enough. I like the 4 o'clock position, especially after seeing that you can grab the gun easily with the left hand. I can sit on my gun and be more comfortable than having it on my hip, as long at it isn't a hard chair.

 

[marshallartist]

I'll have to check it out sometime.

marshallartist,

We teach shooting from the ground in our Integrated Concealed Carry course and on our Advanced Pistol Fighting DVD. We've come up with a method of shooting from supine that you will not sweep yourself with the muzzle while remaining in as safe of a position you can be while on the ground.

It is amazing what you can learn when you train and figures things out!

 

[jdhaines]

I'm a little confused. You are asking us to examine and think about our methods of carry...are you willing to do the same? Here are some thoughts that came to my mind as I watched your video.

1) Arm position while carrying at 4:00. The first picture below is taken at 2:52 where you are finishing up talking about how it's a bad idea to carry further than 4:00 because it takes longer to draw and because you could be giving up your hand or arm. I am extending this line of reasoning and assuming you mean that with your arm behind your back like that you are not very strong and your ability to use that arm to fight/defend/etc is diminished... Your strong muscles aren't working very well chicken winged like that, and if in a fight over your gun, someone could more easily overpower you.

The second image shown below shows the youtube video at 2:58 which is where you reference back to the benefit of the 4:00 position and why it's as far back as you would recommend carrying. I would propose that your arm is in an even worse position, and at the very best an equally bad position. In order to obtain a grip on the pistol at 4:00 you're elbow must be further behind your body. Grabbing a pistol at the SOB position (~6:00) allows your elbow to be bowed out like the first picture with the hand flat on the back grabbing the grip. Both are bad, both are weak, both are slow.

2) Your one main reason against appendix is that normal people shouldn't carry there because of risks to those who can't defend themselves with unarmed skills. If you are one of the people in this position, why would you want your gun in a harder to reach area? If I can't defend myself in unarmed combat, I'll need to get the gun out sooner to protect myself. If I'm super confident in my abilities, I can carry wherever I want because I'll understand not to draw until in a position of advantage. I would say a test for you to try is see how hard it is for someone to take away your gun from a 4:00 holster, vs an appendix holster. In the appendix position you can hunch your shoulders forward, get your arms to your centerline, protect your chin, and ride out many attacks both standing and on the ground while protecting that gun.

If I'm being attacked like this picture, it's very easy to attack the arm that is protecting the gun because its out of position with a 4:00 carry. This is ground skills 101. If you want to keep your arms, don't let them get wide.

image credit


In the image below lets all forget who the people are, and that the poor guy on top is about to get messed up. This is a random fight in a bar... If the guy on the bottom doesn't know any jits, he is going to have a hell of a time keep the gun, or drawing the gun. The top guy has gravity on his side, and the bottom guy's arm is out of position. If you are confident in your ground abilities, as the player on the bottom is, then you know to use your legs and one arm to achieve better position while stiff-arming your gun into the holster. It gets back to the idea of an inexperienced person not using appendix. Again, I propose you have it exactly backwards. An inexperienced person can't afford NOT to carry it up front, or as far forward as reasonably possible in order to hopefully retain the gun. appendix > front of hip > 3:00 > 4:00 > SOB.

image credit

A final point on this topic. If we think of combatives on the street against bad guys, what is the most likely form of training they might have had? High school wrestling. I would say that for anyone who hasn't done this training there is a good chance it would be absolutely frighten you how quickly a snot nosed pimply faced high school dropout could drop you on your ass. He could have a position like the red guy below taking away your ability to both attack directly and draw your weapon while proceeding to dump you any number of messy ways. If you can move, and can keep your arms in front of you while accessing weapons you'll have a better chance than if your lethal lifeline is stuck behind your back or behind your hip.

image credit

I'm all for training your method, doing the work, etc. If you don't care about comfort, it's hard to make a solid case for 4:00 carry. Appendix has it's dark sides, and they are legitimate. You're covering your junk most of the day. Reholstering is dangerous...lets be honest. Carrying a gun with a hammer or manual safety helps, but it's still dangerous. It's also uncomfortable. I understand that the point is arguable, but if any of us are choosing between a 1911 at 4:00 and anything at 1:00, it's an easy choice if we're just going for which is more comfortable.

Lets all be honest about the problems, because they do exist. Anatomical structure and strength are not good attacks against appendix carry. Defense of your gun is not a good one either. Speed of the draw is a third to stay away from. I'm not trying to convince anyone to switch to appendix, but it would be very hard to win an argument using facts trying to show that appendix is not the best method of carry if looking at strictly those three aspects. Fortunately we don't look only at those which is why everyone is different.

3) If you only carry an extra magazine on the right side, what does your normal reload method look like? It does make sense to carry there if you knew your weak side arm would be shot...but wouldn't you agree that the chances of that happening are less than 50%? If you are more likely to need a reload with two hands, why not get the most speed possible and carry it on the weak side like everyone else? Don't practice for what is possible, practice for what is likely. If we're honest, a faulty magazine is probably the most likely reason a gun will malfunction which means you need the old one out and the new one in, and you needed it done 10 seconds ago! Saving a few seconds in the off chance of being winged seems like a bad trade. Am I missing something?

 

[Jackson]

I was planning to post something similar to jdhaines but he did a much better job than I could have done. I have only minimal training in grappling. However, it seems to me that I am much stronger and able to deal with things if they are directly in front of me instead of behind me or to the side.

 

[Brian@ITC]

Jdhaines.

You bring up some very interesting points. First of all understand that unlike a lot of people my gun is NOT my salvation. Appendix carry limits my options of kicking (at least how my G19 rides in appendix carry) and I don’t like it where it is, potentially sitting right over my femoral artery. I’ve trained in a number of likely attacker scenarios and with the appendix carry and I just don’t like it.

I think that relying on your gun to get the job done is placing all of your eggs in one basket and if that’s what your survival is based on, all I can say is good luck. Don’t take it personal, but, a lot of people are in the same boat as you are. I would encourage you to make the time to get some unarmed skills because you are probably going to need those more than your gun skills.

If I do find myself on the ground I’m going to worry about stopping the attack without my gun if I cannot get to it. When you focus on getting the gun out, the bad guy will focus on stopping you from doing so. Thus, that is the reason I carry my knife on my left side! My knife is FAR more dangerous than that pistol. I put a lot more faith in the use of my knife over the handgun.

In the last picture you provided, I seriously doubt you will be able to draw from appendix carry either.

If you only carry an extra magazine on the right side, what does your normal reload method look like? Understand that reloading in a situation is highly unlikely. If I fire 16 shots it was a very bad day. I don’t have a “normal reload” in my regular training regimen. Do I practice it from time-to-time, sure I do. Put as far as “needing” to reload, unless I’m behind cover it’s probably not going to happen. As far as extra magazines I don't always carry more than one. I can easily reach over to my 3 o'clock and grab that magazine which I'm probably not going to need anyway. If I do carry another one it will be just in front of my light.

Without getting into great detail, I’m probably not going to use “standard” gun tactics in a situation. Thus, another reason I don’t care for appendix carry. You mentioned something about drawing with my weak hand and how many times am I going to need to do that, probably not. Just like reloading but people practice it because that’s what is taught.

Now, please don’t take this the wrong way, but your statements are based upon common defensive handgun training methods. When I said “defend your gun” I’m talking about gun retention and the ability to draw with the least amount of danger. A lot of people are going to be squared up to the threat when drawing because they were taught to shoot from the isosceles stance, which places the gun closer to the threat by squaring up. So, if someone blades during their initial contact, then they draw and square up to shoot, is this not taking the “same time” that it would be drawing from the 4 o’clock position where my gun is already farther back? I think that it is a pretty close trade off.

In addition to my statement of traditional defensive handgun training methods I want to say that we do not move like a lot of people move in a confrontation. There are certain things that we do against a gun wielding attacker that will place your gun in a more difficult position to draw your gun with the appendix carry. Things that at times, will be no more different than the guy on his back who can’t draw his gun.

Without spending a lot of time on this… where in the “gunfighting manual” does it say that you MUST defend yourself while on the muzzle end of the gun? I mean, isn’t that really making it a fair fight? If you find yourself in a fair fight, then your tactics suck! I’m fighting as dirty as possible. The tactics I’m probably going to use are things that are not taught by most instructors. In fact, the tactics I’m most likely to use are those that are based upon my unarmed skills and that make more sense than creating distance (in many situations).

Most students that have appendix carried in classes have had a hard time getting their guns into the fight because they get hung up on their concealment garment a lot. I know this is a matter of practice, but it is something that we take into consideration when recommending carry positions. And, they have a hard time doing what we are doing because of the limitation of appendix carry.

You said it is hard to make a solid case for the 4 o’clock position. I disagree but your training has not brought you to that point. Think about this, most people who carry don’t train often or at all. So, if they don’t train much or at all, and they discharge the weapon while drawing from appendix carry, what are they going to hit? More than likely themselves. And, if they hit their femoral artery what is likely to happen? I think that overall, the 3 o’clock or 4 o’clock position is best for people that don’t train or train very little because it is safe for themselves (SELF DEFENSE—also means defense from yourself and the fact that you don’t train much or at all). And who is to say that you won’t have a negligent discharge in the heat of the battle and shoot yourself in the leg? You can’t rule that out…

Not forgetting that if you go to the ground how do you KNOW that you aren’t going to be face down which presents the same problem of carrying at the 4 o’clock position.

So, like I said initially in the OP and the video, with my experience and how I train, the 4 o’clock position works best and provides better options.

What a lot of people don’t realize is that the TIMING in the fight when you draw your gun is important. So, if I’m on my back, obviously I’m not going to go for my gun when I know I can’t get to it. Again, that is why my knife is where it is.

If appendix carry works for you, that is fine. I'm not saying don't, but that I just don't like it or recommend it. I'm sure not going to throw someone out of training because they appendix carry. All I'm saying is that appendix carry is not "THE WAY" to carry.

Cheers!

 

[jdhaines]

Jdhaines.

You bring up some very interesting points. First of all understand that unlike a lot of people my gun is NOT my salvation. Appendix carry limits my options of kicking (at least how my G19 rides in appendix carry) and I don’t like it where it is, potentially sitting right over my femoral artery. I’ve trained in a number of likely attacker scenarios and with the appendix carry and I just don’t like it.

I think that relying on your gun to get the job done is placing all of your eggs in one basket and if that’s what your survival is based on, all I can say is good luck. Don’t take it personal, but, a lot of people are in the same boat as you are. I would encourage you to make the time to get some unarmed skills because you are probably going to need those more than your gun skills.

Good points here. I'm not personally in that situation. I'm far from a badass, but I do train this stuff every week. I was trying to frame my post from the person who hasn't trained in unarmed fighting skills as was discussed in your video. The point was that appendix is not very good for someone without training. I was making the opposite point. Without training, the gun is your lifeline to win a fight (think handicapped, 65 & weaker, bad knees, flat out lack of ever training this stuff, etc.) it would be better to have it up front. I would agree that if you know some things other than draw and shoot you could carry the damn thing in your shoe because it's not your first line of defense. I agree that you are making good points, it just seems backwards.

If I do find myself on the ground I’m going to worry about stopping the attack without my gun if I cannot get to it. When you focus on getting the gun out, the bad guy will focus on stopping you from doing so. Thus, that is the reason I carry my knife on my left side! My knife is FAR more dangerous than that pistol. I put a lot more faith in the use of my knife over the handgun.

Agreed. Goes back to my untrained vs trained though. If you are trained correctly / work this stuff yourself you can quickly see how a knife can be a better tool. This is why I carry a fixed blade on my centerline most days in the style of the clinch pick.

In the last picture you provided, I seriously doubt you will be able to draw from appendix carry either.

It would be damn tough, you're right. But I would seriously like my chances of accessing my centerline fixed blade as the handle is almost exactly where the guy in blue's right hand is. Pull straight down and it's in the hand. Again, the benefits of centerline carry. Even a giant greco wrestler would have a tough time keeping BOTH hands away from my centerline. A decent 150lb high school wrestler could keep my hands away from 4:00, or keep them there once it got back there.

If you only carry an extra magazine on the right side, what does your normal reload method look like? Understand that reloading in a situation is highly unlikely. If I fire 16 shots it was a very bad day. I don’t have a “normal reload” in my regular training regimen. Do I practice it from time-to-time, sure I do. Put as far as “needing” to reload, unless I’m behind cover it’s probably not going to happen. As far as extra magazines I don't always carry more than one. I can easily reach over to my 3 o'clock and grab that magazine which I'm probably not going to need anyway. If I do carry another one it will be just in front of my light.

Without getting into great detail, I’m probably not going to use “standard” gun tactics in a situation. Thus, another reason I don’t care for appendix carry. You mentioned something about drawing with my weak hand and how many times am I going to need to do that, probably not. Just like reloading but people practice it because that’s what is taught.

Sounds like a neat set of ideas. I hadn't ever heard it put together that way. Seems like you have logical reasons for why you carry that way. I'm not sure I would follow suit, but that's sort of the point of this thread!

Now, please don’t take this the wrong way, but your statements are based upon common defensive handgun training methods. When I said “defend your gun” I’m talking about gun retention and the ability to draw with the least amount of danger. A lot of people are going to be squared up to the threat when drawing because they were taught to shoot from the isosceles stance, which places the gun closer to the threat by squaring up. So, if someone blades during their initial contact, then they draw and square up to shoot, is this not taking the “same time” that it would be drawing from the 4 o’clock position where my gun is already farther back? I think that it is a pretty close trade off.

I guess if you find a person who will act like you say, then your conclusion makes sense. I've not seen that in anyone I've worked with. People either blade because it's the normal gun-guy thing to do (which is common) or they stay squared up, like I do, the whole time because that's my fighting structure, that's my pre-fight verbal structure, that's my shooting structure, and that's my unarmed fighting structure. Hips stay square to target all the time, nose over toes, ready to move and all that other jazz.

In addition to my statement of traditional defensive handgun training methods I want to say that we do not move like a lot of people move in a confrontation. There are certain things that we do against a gun wielding attacker that will place your gun in a more difficult position to draw your gun with the appendix carry. Things that at times, will be no more different than the guy on his back who can’t draw his gun.

Care to elaborate more on this?

Without spending a lot of time on this… where in the “gunfighting manual” does it say that you MUST defend yourself while on the muzzle end of the gun? I mean, isn’t that really making it a fair fight? If you find yourself in a fair fight, then your tactics suck! I’m fighting as dirty as possible. The tactics I’m probably going to use are things that are not taught by most instructors. In fact, the tactics I’m most likely to use are those that are based upon my unarmed skills and that make more sense than creating distance (in many situations).

You are saying that there may be a time to not defend yourself with a gun in your face? If I have a gun in my face and I start some sort of defense against that threat, how is that making it a fair fight? I'm confused again. I'm all for using unarmed skills since creating distance while the bad guy has a distance weapon is pretty damn dumb. Not sure what you were getting at here.

Most students that have appendix carried in classes have had a hard time getting their guns into the fight because they get hung up on their concealment garment a lot. I know this is a matter of practice, but it is something that we take into consideration when recommending carry positions. And, they have a hard time doing what we are doing because of the limitation of appendix carry.

Can't argue if you've seen this and its an observation. I've seen this as well as seen people get hung up at 3:00, 4:00, etc. It seems to be a fact of a messy unscripted fight that a shirt over your weapon will get in the way. We can try to train it out, but it's a fact of life.

You said it is hard to make a solid case for the 4 o’clock position. I disagree but your training has not brought you to that point. Think about this, most people who carry don’t train often or at all. So, if they don’t train much or at all, and they discharge the weapon while drawing from appendix carry, what are they going to hit? More than likely themselves. And, if they hit their femoral artery what is likely to happen? I think that overall, the 3 o’clock or 4 o’clock position is best for people that don’t train or train very little because it is safe for themselves (SELF DEFENSE—also means defense from yourself and the fact that you don’t train much or at all). And who is to say that you won’t have a negligent discharge in the heat of the battle and shoot yourself in the leg? You can’t rule that out…

Not forgetting that if you go to the ground how do you KNOW that you aren’t going to be face down which presents the same problem of carrying at the 4 o’clock position.

Anyone could shoot themselves in the leg or anything else while grappling against resistance with a loaded gun. All this gun carrying stuff is dangerous business. A ND from appendix is certainly more dangerous than from 4:00. Safety from gun handling is absolutely an argument against appendix carry for untrained people. Arguing that it's better in a fight for untrained people I still don't agree with. These are all things that need to be weighed out before deciding on a carry method.

So, like I said initially in the OP and the video, with my experience and how I train, the 4 o’clock position works best and provides better options.

What a lot of people don’t realize is that the TIMING in the fight when you draw your gun is important. So, if I’m on my back, obviously I’m not going to go for my gun when I know I can’t get to it. Again, that is why my knife is where it is.

If appendix carry works for you, that is fine. I'm not saying don't, but that I just don't like it or recommend it. I'm sure not going to throw someone out of training because they appendix carry. All I'm saying is that appendix carry is not "THE WAY" to carry.

Cheers!

The place I broke my cherry on this type of training has a rule that addresses this timing and that entire portion of the fight is given a huge amount of respect. The term they use is IFWA (in fight weapon access). I've seen a lot (and I've done it myself) that when you start to get desperate its so easy to say screw it, and start going for the weapon and ignoring the bad guy. Usually things go from bad to worse. It's difficult to suppress the feeling that there is a shining beacon of safety attached to your belt or pocket when you are winded, sweating, on your back, and a guy is crushing your chest and punching you in the face...but its one of those things that takes putting in the hours to try and work out for yourself. I still screw it up constantly, but I screw it up less now than I did when I started.

I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate, but I agree that it isn't THE WAY. I know some very tough, very capable guys who carry behind the hip. The key is for everyone to understand the pros and cons and make their own decision. If we're getting the facts on the table of each, I wanted to make some arguments for the other side.

Thanks for the discussion Brian. It made me think of a few things to try out in the coming weeks. You've obviously put in the time coming up with these conclusions and its interesting to see different answers to similar questions.

 

[Brian@ITC]

I understand where you are coming from when you say that you think that for an untrained person that it is easier to defend appendix carry. All things considered, I personally feel that for the untrained/minimallytrained person that appendix carry isn’t ideal.

I agree that you are making good points, it just seems backwards.

And I think that safety has to be first and then move on from there. If someone is unsafe with a firearm, and the majority of people I’ve encountered which is literally in the thousands, holstering their gun when leaving the house to carry and drawing their gun to put it up when they get home, is this not a prime time for them to shoot themselves in the leg? I know that no matter where you carry that you can shoot yourself or someone else. But, appendix carry seems to be “too risky” for most people just from a safety aspect.

Care to elaborate more on this?

I’m very careful about what I put out here for everyone to see. The reason I say that is because criminals have access to YouTube just like everyone. So, they can learn things that you might do and then your plan is no good. I am working on a 15-20 minute video that I might make available via link (private) to provide further insight to some of the things that we teach, etc. and to get you a better idea of what I’m talking about without giving the average YouTube surfer easy access. It will take me a few days to get it together.

Originally Posted by Brian@ITC
Without spending a lot of time on this… where in the “gunfighting manual” does it say that you MUST defend yourself while on the muzzle end of the gun? I mean, isn’t that really making it a fair fight? If you find yourself in a fair fight, then your tactics suck! I’m fighting as dirty as possible. The tactics I’m probably going to use are things that are not taught by most instructors. In fact, the tactics I’m most likely to use are those that are based upon my unarmed skills and that make more sense than creating distance (in many situations).

You are saying that there may be a time to not defend yourself with a gun in your face? If I have a gun in my face and I start some sort of defense against that threat, how is that making it a fair fight? I'm confused again. I'm all for using unarmed skills since creating distance while the bad guy has a distance weapon is pretty damn dumb. Not sure what you were getting at here.

No, what I’m saying is that if I’m on the muzzle end of the gun and I’m 0-6 feet away, to create distance and try to use my gun is IMHO a foolish thing to do. By creating distance while on the muzzle end of the adversary’s gun I am giving them a “fair shot” at shooting me. WHY in the world would I want to do that? It doesn’t make sense to me. In fact, about 80% of confrontations take place from 0-6 feet. What I’m telling you is that if you create distance your hit ratio is going to go down. Because most people (including trainers) have limited or no H2H skills, they overlook the "obvious" choice of moving in past the muzzle. Moving past the muzzle takes away the ability to use the business end of the adversary's weapon. Although this might seem dangerous, is it more or less dangerous than being on the muzzle end of the gun. Now, is this going to work for every encounter? No. BUT, depending upon the situation it could be a better solution more often than not. However, no one other than ITC is teaching this as far as I know.

If I close the distance what are my odds of increasing my hit ratio in upwards of 90-100%? And, the necessary shot placement to immediately incapacitate my threat is greatly increased.

Arguing that it's better in a fight for untrained people I still don't agree with. These are all things that need to be weighed out before deciding on a carry method.

Again, safety is first and foremost. So, IMHO I won’t teach something that the average person who doesn’t train much or at all will have a good chance of taking themselves out of the fight by drawing their gun.

I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate, but I agree that it isn't THE WAY. I know some very tough, very capable guys who carry behind the hip. The key is for everyone to understand the pros and cons and make their own decision. If we're getting the facts on the table of each, I wanted to make some arguments for the other side.

I agree. And contrary to what a lot of people think, I/we train on this stuff extensively before I say anything about it.

Here’s how we approach training. What can we teach a person that is realistic, practical, simple, AND effective with the least amount of time spent training? Because, what we have found is that most people are not going to spend the dirt time they should to get really good at drawing and shooting from concealment, or defending themselves unarmed. At the same time keeping them as “safe” as they can be. Again, that safe may mean protecting them from themselves such as appendix carry.

Again, weighing ALL of my options, and NOT relying on the use of my gun, I prefer 4 o’clock. Having “faster” access to your gun doesn’t mean it is better. It just means that theoretically it is faster.

Thanks for the discussion Brian. It made me think of a few things to try out in the coming weeks. You've obviously put in the time coming up with these conclusions and its interesting to see different answers to similar questions.

Your welcome! And thank you for your civilized approach of delivering “opposition”.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Interesting points on both sides of this argument. I have some martial arts training and a solid wrestling background and got my firearms training through the local PD some years ago. THEIR training emphasized hanging onto your weapon, lest it be used against you. I think it's a fair bit easier to shield a handgun sheathed at the 3-4/8-9 o'clock positions. For one thing, you can keep your hand pressing down on the weapon in your holster while still using your elbow to fend off an attacker. You can also turn on your handgun side to keep it from being grabbed, temporarily freeing both hands. The local PD taught firing from "disadvantaged" shooting positions because they're all too aware of the many times single combatants get into those situations. Some other considerations: if you're OC, what level of retention does your holster have? Most people I see carry at Level I, which basically means if you aren't paying attention, almost anyone can lift your handgun out of your holster. Those who CC are probably also carrying at Level I, but the additional barriers of clothing which conceal also make it more difficult to grab the weapon out of the holster. Regardless of how you carry, if you get into a scuffle, the FIRST thing you had better be thinking of is guarding your handgun.

 

[cg21]

been looking into where to carry my gun.