K9 patrols in malls?

[Frank_N_Stein]

No worries. A full 90% didn't notice it. At least 5% wouldn't know it was incorrect, even if they did notice it. The last 5% has made the same mistake and relied on spell check to ccorrecctit. We're all victims!

As to the thread as a whole... it's sad we've reached a point where everyone perusing a mall is subjected to 4a violations because some are bad people. Also, I would prefer the K9's be available for third party testing, at least on occasion. Did fluffy really smell something or has fluffy been conditioned (aka trained) that he gets a break and a treat on every fifth 'signal' ?

Courts have ruled that leo cannot take dogs serendipitously around apartment complex doors in an effort to locate -whatever it is- they're looking for. But once in "public", even though a mall is private property, all bets are off and any/all are subject to 'random' inspection. I've been to the UP Mall many, many times over the last 20yrs. I have never felt threatened nor have I ever encountered a K9.

How is it a 4A violation if the dogs are owned/operated by a private, non-law enforcement entity?

 

[jsx1043]

No worries. A full 90% didn't notice it. At least 5% wouldn't know it was incorrect, even if they did notice it. The last 5% has made the same mistake and relied on spell check to ccorrecctit. We're all victims!

As to the thread as a whole... it's sad we've reached a point where everyone perusing a mall is subjected to 4a violations because some are bad people. Also, I would prefer the K9's be available for third party testing, at least on occasion. Did fluffy really smell something or has fluffy been conditioned (aka trained) that he gets a break and a treat on every fifth 'signal' ?

Courts have ruled that leo cannot take dogs serendipitously around apartment complex doors in an effort to locate -whatever it is- they're looking for. But once in "public", even though a mall is private property, all bets are off and any/all are subject to 'random' inspection. I've been to the UP Mall many, many times over the last 20yrs. I have never felt threatened nor have I ever encountered a K9.

While I feel your pain and lament the same, that we are in this position because we’ve allowed the weakest of society to determine our social norms and have allowed for numerous infringements on our rights, this however is not one of them.

There is no 4A violation because the owner/operator is private versus law enforcement, thus not being a governmental entity they cannot violate your fourth amendment rights.

As for the K9 itself, I’m sure that the private security guy who has worked his ass off to train for two months with an explosive detection K9 to go through handler school and spends an extra 20 hours a week training and taking care of a trained service dog (most likely without pay) in addition to their regular duties AND HAS NO LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITY goes out of his way to cue his dog just to kick Joe Citizen out of the mall.

I’m not trying to sound snarky, but there are a lot of things to be upset about in this life, especially when it comes to actual rights infringements, but this is not one of them. We can be upset that this is the way things are, but we allowed it to happen.

 

[manifest destiny]

How is it a 4A violation if the dogs are owned/operated by a private, non-law enforcement entity?

It's probably not, officially at least. I kinda covered that aspect in my original post. Still, what a ***** reality that everyone at a mall is suspect and subject to what is effectively random searches. I am sympathetic to mall owners. They're screwed on this issue. If no K9 patrol, the litigious person screams "negligence!" . Add K9 patrols and the average person screams "too much!". What the hell is the property owner supposed to do, I get it. Still sucks.

While I feel your pain and lament the same, that we are in this position because we’ve allowed the weakest of society to determine our social norms and have allowed for numerous infringements on our rights, this however is not one of them.

There is no 4A violation because the owner/operator is private versus law enforcement, thus not being a governmental entity they cannot violate your fourth amendment rights.

As for the K9 itself, I’m sure that the private security guy who has worked his ass off to train for two months with an explosive detection K9 to go through handler school and spends an extra 20 hours a week training and taking care of a trained service dog (most likely without pay) in addition to their regular duties AND HAS NO LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITY goes out of his way to cue his dog just to kick Joe Citizen out of the mall.

I’m not trying to sound snarky, but there are a lot of things to be upset about in this life, especially when it comes to actual rights infringements, but this is not one of them. We can be upset that this is the way things are, but we allowed it to happen.

Point taken. I simply point out that while I don't know if the handler intentionally cues his K9, I also don't know how consistently accurate the K9 is. Suggesting some occasional 3rd party testing of the dog shouldn't be taken as a clarion call for revolution. I don't mind your snark. It is what it is and what it is is really crappy that we've reached such a situation as a society.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

While I feel your pain and lament the same, that we are in this position because we’ve allowed the weakest of society to determine our social norms and have allowed for numerous infringements on our rights, this however is not one of them.

There is no 4A violation because the owner/operator is private versus law enforcement, thus not being a governmental entity they cannot violate your fourth amendment rights.

As for the K9 itself, I’m sure that the private security guy who has worked his ass off to train for two months with an explosive detection K9 to go through handler school and spends an extra 20 hours a week training and taking care of a trained service dog (most likely without pay) in addition to their regular duties AND HAS NO LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITY goes out of his way to cue his dog just to kick Joe Citizen out of the mall.

I’m not trying to sound snarky, but there are a lot of things to be upset about in this life, especially when it comes to actual rights infringements, but this is not one of them. We can be upset that this is the way things are, but we allowed it to happen.

It's probably not, officially at least. I kinda covered that aspect in my original post. Still, what a ***** reality that everyone at a mall is suspect and subject to what is effectively random searches. I am sympathetic to mall owners. They're screwed on this issue. If no K9 patrol, the litigious person screams "negligence!" . Add K9 patrols and the average person screams "too much!". What the hell is the property owner supposed to do, I get it. Still sucks.

Point taken. I simply point out that while I don't know if the handler intentionally cues his K9, I also don't know how consistently accurate the K9 is. Suggesting some occasional 3rd party testing of the dog shouldn't be taken as a clarion call for revolution. I don't mind your snark. It is what it is and what it is is really crappy that we've reached such a situation as a society.

You are missing the point that the K9 patrols aren't police, and your butthurt is misguided.

 

[manifest destiny]

You are missing the point that the K9 patrols aren't police, and your butthurt is misguided.

You're such a pleasant person. It's hard to imagine how cops get a reputation for being a jerk.

 

[littletommy]

I’m not trying to sound snarky, but there are a lot of things to be upset about in this life, especially when it comes to actual rights infringements, but this is not one of them. We can be upset that this is the way things are, but we allowed it to happen.

Exactly! I could drive to the nearest mall (which I don’t remember the last time I’ve been to one) and get pissed off 25 times about the sights I see along the way, but getting pissed because the mall has hired a K9 handler is not even slightly on my radar of things that tick me off.

If I were to fret over it, or feel that in some way my rights were being violated, I simply wouldn’t go.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

You're such a pleasant person. It's hard to imagine how cops get a reputation for being a jerk.

I have no intention of being a friend of yours, I can sense your disdain for all LE by your posts.

 

[manifest destiny]

I have no intention of being a friend of yours, I can sense your disdain for all LE by your posts.

You charmer, you.

 

[firecadet613]

I can't wait to see the inevitable curb stomp happen here... it'll be more entertaining than going to the mall and watching the K9s...

 

[Timjoebillybob]

How is it a 4A violation if the dogs are owned/operated by a private, non-law enforcement entity?

Honestly even if they are actual LEO K-9s, I don't think it would be a 4th Am violation if they were on private property with the consent of the owner/management.

Although honestly I wouldn't mind 3rd party testing and/or records kept of hits to contraband found.

 

[jsx1043]

Just information so everyone knows the requirements, explosive detection dogs and their handlers are required to certify every year under national standards, be it DHS/TSA, ATF, NORT, NAPWDA, or AWDA. Certification is usually an entire week dedicated to your skill (explosives, narcotics, human remains, patrol, tracking, accelerant, etc), so a patrol/narcotics K9 would be two weeks to certify. Most handlers work for two hours a day to train, sometimes on shift, most of the time not if they are part of a smaller department/organization. In addition, handlers spend 1-2 hours a day feeding, cleaning, kenneling and maintaining their K9 partner, vehicle and equipment. The predominant average among police K9s and private sector K9s working under federal contracts is 8–12 hours a week for trainer-led coursework.
The average K9 handler school is 8-10 weeks.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Just information so everyone knows the requirements, explosive detection dogs and their handlers are required to certify every year under national standards, be it DHS/TSA, ATF, NORT, NAPWDA, or AWDA. Certification is usually an entire week dedicated to your skill (explosives, narcotics, human remains, patrol, tracking, accelerant, etc), so a patrol/narcotics K9 would be two weeks to certify. Most handlers work for two hours a day to train, sometimes on shift, most of the time not if they are part of a smaller department/organization. In addition, handlers spend 1-2 hours a day feeding, cleaning, kenneling and maintaining their K9 partner, vehicle and equipment. The predominant average among police K9s and private sector K9s working under federal contracts is 8–12 hours a week for trainer-led coursework.
The average K9 handler school is 8-10 weeks.

Got any idea how much time Jason spends training Bear?

In any case, once the K9s come out to search the patrons, my mall-walking days are OVER. . .

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Just information so everyone knows the requirements, explosive detection dogs and their handlers are required to certify every year under national standards, be it DHS/TSA, ATF, NORT, NAPWDA, or AWDA. Certification is usually an entire week dedicated to your skill (explosives, narcotics, human remains, patrol, tracking, accelerant, etc), so a patrol/narcotics K9 would be two weeks to certify. Most handlers work for two hours a day to train, sometimes on shift, most of the time not if they are part of a smaller department/organization. In addition, handlers spend 1-2 hours a day feeding, cleaning, kenneling and maintaining their K9 partner, vehicle and equipment. The predominant average among police K9s and private sector K9s working under federal contracts is 8–12 hours a week for trainer-led coursework.
The average K9 handler school is 8-10 weeks.

That may be. I'll see if I can find it but there was a I won't say study, but maybe a "test" a few years back. Multiple currently active experienced K-9s and handlers divided into 3 groups, explosive only, drug only, and dual drug/explosive. They marked spots in a church that supposedly contained those items, but actually had nothing, sausage, dog treats, and tennis balls. The explosive dogs did best with iirc one false hit total. Dual were next with several, drug false hits everywhere. Only dogs that scored were the explosive. Didn't seem to matter what decoy else there, just that the handler expected something there.

I'm not saying that the handlers were intentionally signalling the dogs, but that the dogs could read their handlers.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Just information so everyone knows the requirements, explosive detection dogs and their handlers are required to certify every year under national standards, be it DHS/TSA, ATF, NORT, NAPWDA, or AWDA. Certification is usually an entire week dedicated to your skill (explosives, narcotics, human remains, patrol, tracking, accelerant, etc), so a patrol/narcotics K9 would be two weeks to certify. Most handlers work for two hours a day to train, sometimes on shift, most of the time not if they are part of a smaller department/organization. In addition, handlers spend 1-2 hours a day feeding, cleaning, kenneling and maintaining their K9 partner, vehicle and equipment. The predominant average among police K9s and private sector K9s working under federal contracts is 8–12 hours a week for trainer-led coursework.
The average K9 handler school is 8-10 weeks.

Found it. And I was incorrect on a couple of details, but close. Teams were ran through 4 times. A control, marked by a sheet of construction paper, decoy slim jim and tennis ball, and marked and decoy.

Handler beliefs affect scent detection dog outcomes

Our aim was to evaluate how human beliefs affect working dog outcomes in an applied environment. We asked whether beliefs of scent detection dog handlers affect team performance and evaluated relative importance of human versus dog influences on handlers’ ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov