More Gun-Mounted Flashlight Fun (Denver)

[T.Lex]

The March shooting was the third accidental discharge because of gun-mounted flashlights documented by the Denver Police Department.

Perhaps there is another explanation - something akin to group-think. Office 1 has an accidental discharge. He thinks it is because of his flashlight. He may or not be correct about causation, but that's what he says. Gets some discipline, but not fired. Some time later, Officer 2 has an accidental discharge. He is now predisposed to thinking the flashlight is the problem. He is also probably convinced. Officer 3... well... you get the idea.

Note: this does not mean the flashlight issue doesn't exist. It certainly might. It just seems strange to have 1 department with 3 instances of an event that I haven't heard of from any other department.

 

[Denny347]

Any thoughts on whether it gives bad guys something to shoot at? I was advised once not to have one on my weapon but hold the flashlight away from my person. So if someone just shoots at the light its not as big a risk. I was never sure about this.

I took a 4 day structure clearing class put on by our SWAT guys. Such great training. We used Sim Glocks a TON and attached our TLR-1's to them if we normally carried them. Some of the rooms had bad guys in them and we were instructed to leave our lights on the entire time we cleared a room. It was "eye opening" that the bad guys were totally disoriented by the lights...every time. We would enter the dark room quickly with the lights on and they could not focus on any of us to shoot at. Now, at distance, I could see this being a target but up close those LED's put out enough light to blind bad guys temporarily.

 

[Denny347]

Perhaps there is another explanation - something akin to group-think. Office 1 has an accidental discharge. He thinks it is because of his flashlight. He may or not be correct about causation, but that's what he says. Gets some discipline, but not fired. Some time later, Officer 2 has an accidental discharge. He is now predisposed to thinking the flashlight is the problem. He is also probably convinced. Officer 3... well... you get the idea.

Note: this does not mean the flashlight issue doesn't exist. It certainly might. It just seems strange to have 1 department with 3 instances of an event that I haven't heard of from any other department.

Training issue.

 

[Denny347]

I'm always an advocate of actuating the flashlight with the other hand. I understand the advantage of the tape switch they show in the article, allowing for one handed manipulation. But keeping the two operations completely separate prevents situations like this

Training issue. I can tell you that searching a dark house with my gun out and my support hand free because the light is attached to my handgun is invaluable. Being able to open doors, cabinets, etc with full control over my light is fantastic. TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING.

 

[rhino]

What is this training thing of which you chaps speak?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING.

In the final analysis it all comes does to this.

What I object to, no too strong, what I caution against is the Cargo Cult rubbish so manifest in the gun culture. Just because Mr. Frum put a flashlight on his pistol does not mean you (second person plural) should.

I know it is different for the police who are expected to go forward and arrest the alleged mope (even though he is completely innocent). For me, without badge or salad suit, I have other concerns, e.g. not setting myself on fire.

 

[bwframe]

I wonder how many non-LEO's actually train with their gun mounted lights? I mean real training, not dry fire at all the door knobs in the house?

 

[j4jenk]

If we all agreed that handguns were to remain holstered until required for appropriate use of force, regardless of lighting accessories, then we wouldn't have this issue. What's next using the laser sights as pointers during courtroom testimony?

You want a light or laser on your gun great, but it shouldn't increase the amount of time that weapon spends upholstered.

 

[Vigilant]

I wonder how many non-LEO's actually train with their gun mounted lights? I mean real training, not dry fire at all the door knobs in the house?

at the very least, one whole handgun class a year!

 

[PKendall317]

I don't think this is a problem with weapon mounted lights, I think this is a training problem that isn't addressed enough. If you're going to hang a light off your firearm, learn how to use the damn thing. Personally I've practiced operating the flashlight with my support hand instead of my strong hand. Just seems like common sense to me.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

If we all agreed that handguns were to remain holstered until required for appropriate use of force, regardless of lighting accessories, then we wouldn't have this issue. What's next using the laser sights as pointers during courtroom testimony?

You want a light or laser on your gun great, but it shouldn't increase the amount of time that weapon spends upholstered.

Have you ever been faced with a shoot/don't shoot scenario? I'd like to hear how not drawing your weapon until "required" worked out for you.

 

[Tactically Fat]

Kyle Lamb had a really good article recently in Guns & Ammo about the dangers of only having weapon mounted light. It was a really good article; but I can't find a link and the G&A website isn't playing nice with me today.

 

[bwframe]

Have you ever been faced with a shoot/don't shoot scenario? I'd like to hear how not drawing your weapon until "required" worked out for you.

How many non-LEO weapon mounted light carriers do you encounter?

 

[cook5oh]

I've had a light mounted on my leo weapon since 2006 and never a negligent discharge. It's a huge advantage having it already mounted on the gun. You have a free hand to manipulate when needed and you can still fire two handed. Reading the article, it sounds like a combination of lack of training and bad circumstances combined with a stressful situation.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

How many non-LEO weapon mounted light carriers do you encounter?

No clue. I don't disarm.

 

[bwframe]

No clue. I don't disarm.

 

[Tanfodude]

No thanks, I'm keeping mine on, less distraction on my part and less fiddling with the off hand. Mine's only on for HD.

 

[cwillour]

Have you ever been faced with a shoot/don't shoot scenario? I'd like to hear how not drawing your weapon until "required" worked out for you.

I think we read his statement very differently.

What I read him as saying is that having a light on a weapon should not impact the decision on when to draw (or where to point.) If you would otherwise have your weapon out and aimed in a given direction, then the light is not a factor. On the other hand, if the guiding reason the weapon is being drawn or aimed in a given direction is to facilitate use of the light, I might argue that rule #2 is being broken for the convenience of the light.

In the case of Officer Mudloff, my question is simply whether the use of a weapon light (vs a separate light) influenced where his service weapon was pointed when it discharged. If the firearm would otherwise have been pointed elsewhere, then the direction of the discharge is part of the issue IMO.

As to my decision not to use a weapon light on certain arms, my personal needs are very different from yours. I choose not to mount a light on certain weapons (for now) as I know the most likely cause of a noise/breakage/alarm is one of two children (possibly in combination with a dog that likes to get underfoot.)