My First Class 3, SBR

[aclark]

Well not an SBR yet, actually nothing yet, but its going to start its life as a pistol, and then transition to and SBR once the paper work clears. I have a few NFA questions and a few build questions. I've tried to read most of the topics on the subject, but still coming up a bit short on answers.

• I have contacted Grant Liston and will have a trust ready soon.
• I have my form 1 printed out and have been trying to read up on it.
• Do I need the citizenship form as well, with the form one?

As for the build.

• I am thinking 5.56/.223 just for ease. This will keep calibers consolidated and will keep me from hunting from a somewhat obscure barrel and ammo (already dealing with that for 6.5 Grendel). I'm thinking suppressor down the line, but that's secondary.
• The .300 BLK/ACC seems interesting, but I have no hands on exp with the round, so really don't know all the ins and outs, other than articles and forum posts. Its a somewhat obscure round, but it suppresses better than 5.56.
• 9mm pistol build. This would be a fun little carbine, and could share a can with my G19, but I think I'd rather have the SBR in a rifle cal.

Ok so assuming, for now, that I go with .223, what are some suggestions? I was thinking 10.5", but it seems like a lot of people are suggesting 11.5" for reliability issues. Is this where we need an adjustable gas block? Maybe jump ahead of the game and get something like the PRI Gasbuster as well in hopes of suppression down the line? I don't mind the extra inch, but I want to keep it light and compact. Do I got with a full length rail or is it better to leave some room on the end? I do like the look of just the FH/comp sticking out, but it seems like its a bit of a "fashion fad".

My current 16" set up is a DD 16" middy, LW barrel, with OmegaX 9" rail. I run and aimpoint micro with magpul rear BUIS, also running the CTR stock. I am in the process of building a 6.5 Grendel with 22" barrel and something like the Troy Alpha or Midwest slick tube. I'm bouncing back and forth between a quadrail and a slick tube for this pistol/sbr and just can figure out which way to go. I think the quad will be a little more diverse, but heavier, but the slickside will be more on track with the lightweight idea. I can always add a few small rail sections on the Troy (or similar) for a light etc.

 

[jblomenberg16]

Congrats on your first build!

A few thoughts:

1) 5.56 is nice because of the low recoil and common ammo with your other AR. Downside is that as you shorten the barrel, you drop velocity and will lose a bit of energy from the projectile. It is also hard to load it subsonic and still cycle the action (useful if you get a suppressor later on).

2) 300BLK is nice because it uses common parts with the 5.56 other than the barrel. It can also be loaded subsonic but with charges that will still cycle the action (again useful if you plan to suppress later). 300BLK ammo is a bit harder to find, but easy to reload from fairly easy to find parts (5.56 case, .308 projectile)

3) 9mm is a lot of fun and would give you the ease of common ammo with other 9mm ammo. It is probably the least expensive to shoot, but will also have the least amount of range.




I went the 300BLK route as it gave me a rifle round, with capability to cycle subsonic loads similar to pistol rounds.



ETA: I went with a 9.5" bbl on my 300BLK. That, plus my YHM suppressor gives me an overall length that is exactly the same as my 16" upper + flash hider.

 

[loony1]

• The .300 BLK/ACC seems interesting, but I have no hands on exp with the round, so really don't know all the ins and outs, other than articles and forum posts. Its a somewhat obscure round, but it suppresses better than 5.56.

Come in and see us if you are interested in learning about .300BLK. TAT7 has an 8inch laying around for an example piece. He can answer any and all of your questions regarding this caliber and personal experience.

 

[MikeDVB]

You know, I hadn't even thought about 300 Blackout for the SBR I want to build... I see no reason I couldn't go that route though... I plan on reloading my own .223 so it wouldn't be too hard to get what I needed to be able to reload 300BLK...

@OP - If you go with 300BLK, let us all know how you like it. I've watched some videos on suppressed 300BLK and they were very quiet.

Edit: This barrel looks nice - it's 10" but it's stainless [some don't like stainless]. I imagine one could have it cerakoted or something similar if they wanted.

 

[rvb]

I think you need to figure out what you want the gun for and how you're going to use it.

Figure out if you are going to silence it or not, and how quiet you would want it to be. Figure out if it's for defensive use, and what the length does to your ballistics. Are you reloading or does cost of ammo factor in? Only then will you be happy and know if you built the "right" gun for you.

My first SBR was 9mm. My first two priorities were very quiet and very short. I then wanted fun and inexpensive to shoot. Defensive use was lowest priority.

You can get very quiet w/ subsonic 9mm (which I was already reloading for pistol competition), and very short w/ 9mm ARs since there is no gas system. I ended up w/ a 5" barrel. It's just an all-around very fun gun. My wife hates shooting my std ARs, but loves shooting the silenced 9mm.

Lately I've been working on a 12.5" 5.56. It's priority will be defensive use. It will be silenced, but quietness is a secondary goal. I've settled on the length as it's a compromise on the ballistics (worse than a 16", better than a 10.5"), but w/ a silencer keeps the over-all-length only slightly longer than a 16" carbine.

I looked at .300BLK, but right now it's still in "novelty" territory for me. I may build a .300BLK upper just for fun.

Figure out what you want the gun to DO before you start picking parts. Once you define your goals, it's easier to say "I picked this part/configuration because....."

BTW: on the handguards. Longer HGs that go nearly to the muzzle are more than a fashion statement. Depending on the stance/grip method you prefer, it can really affect how you drive the gun. Again, you have to know if you are silencing and what mount you would be using. Too long and you can interfer with some silencer mounts. I also like at least 1-2" of barrel in front of the HG so that if I get a bad grip and my hand gets a little far forward it's hard to get in front of the muzzle or get burned by the comp gases.



-rvb

 

[aclark]

I agree with you on the "know what you want to do part", but I kind of summed up that I will most likely be going to .223, just looking for suggestions to maybe sway me another way on the .300 and 9mm. Silencing is a secondary concern as I stated in my OP. I would like to maybe get a 5.56 can down the road, that's why I went trust (MORE TOYS), but its not a main concern of THIS build. Defense might be an option for this gun, but I do have other methods with both pistol and 16" AR. I'm also not likely looking to take shots over 100yds with this gun, I don't think that should be an objective or any SBR in 5.56/.223. Is it doable, yes, but I don't think that's ever a primary concern.

I suppose the finial purpose of this rifle would be range and possible defense. However, like I stated I'm looking for lightweight and compact, and of course reliable.

 

[MikeDVB]

Does one need a tax stamp for a pistol SBR?

 

[aclark]

Not for the pistol, but once you put a buttstock on it you need the tax stamp. That why a lot of people will build them with the pistol buffer until they paperwork clears.

 

[MikeDVB]

Not for the pistol, but once you put a buttstock on it you need the tax stamp. That why a lot of people will build them with the pistol buffer until they paperwork clears.

Very nice - I may just do that... A 9mm AR would be great for in-home defense I would think.

 

[rvb]

I agree with you on the "know what you want to do part", but I kind of summed up that I will most likely be going to .223, just looking for suggestions to maybe sway me another way on the .300 and 9mm. Silencing is a secondary concern as I stated in my OP. I would like to maybe get a 5.56 can down the road, that's why I went trust (MORE TOYS), but its not a main concern of THIS build. Defense might be an option for this gun, but I do have other methods with both pistol and 16" AR. I'm also not likely looking to take shots over 100yds with this gun, I don't think that should be an objective or any SBR in 5.56/.223. Is it doable, yes, but I don't think that's ever a primary concern.

I suppose the finial purpose of this rifle would be range and possible defense. However, like I stated I'm looking for lightweight and compact, and of course reliable.

OK. It sounded like you were looking for guidance on caliber in your OP. Hard for us to tell you what you want unless you're asking specific questions like "which will be quieter" or "which has better ballistics at 100 yds." That's why I tried to give some example of WHY I went w/ different calibers.

For length, I would only go 10.5 if the barrel was from someone I really trusted to get the gas right, eg Colt/BCM, esp since you say reliability is a concern. I would also look at the A5 buffer system. 11.5" does seem to be the "in" thing these days. You have to weigh shortness againt the ballistics if you intend it for defensive use. That's kind of how I settled on 12.5. I even thought about going 14.5 to save the stamp cost, but by the time I pin/weld the muzzle device (especially if I ever have to remove it), I'm out some money anyway since I can't do that work myself.

As for the silencer, just keep in mind the decision of whether you want to use it eventually on THIS build -could- affect decisions on parts such as what muzzle device you install, your gas block, your buffer selection, your charging handle selection, and even things like your handguards (for reasons I mentioned above). True, you can change out parts later. That's fine if you don't mind the cost of buying more parts later.

Could just be my personality... I'm more of a planner... I tend to have a picture in my head what I want, come up w/ a parts list, research compatability issues, weigh decisions against cost, etc.... THEN I start placing orders. Some people like to just buy parts and see what comes out!

-rvb

 

[aclark]

Known Parts
Palmetto State Stripped Lower
Standard LPK (any brand)
Phase 5 Buffer tube (kit)
Aero Precision Stripped Upper
AR Stoner Nickle Boron BCG

Unknown Parts
Spike/YHM/BCM Barrel (10.5" or 11.5")
[Adjustable?] Gas block/tube to match barrel
Rail - I like a few
DD Lite 9" (Free float, lightweight)
Centurion C4 (free float, lightweight)
Troy Alpha (maybe, its really aggressive)
Not going to rule out non free floats, maybe the Troy or MI drop in quad rails

I have a basic idea, really just comes down to barrel length and rail system. I understand on an Pistol/SBR those are the biggest part, but that's where I'm looking for suggestions. I don't think I REALLY need a free float since this isn't super precision, but they are nice to have.

Stock will eventually be a CTR off my 16" middy, and I will be putting something else on that rifle (SOPMOD or ACS perhaps)

Hope this helps understand my thoughts behind this build.

 

[rvb]

I have a basic idea, really just comes down to barrel length and rail system. I understand on an Pistol/SBR those are the biggest part, but that's where I'm looking for suggestions. I don't think I REALLY need a free float since this isn't super precision, but they are nice to have.

Yea, there are so many options with handguards it makes your head spin. It comes down to preference. Do you like carbine length handguards? If so, you could do fine w/ a std A2 front sight and handguards of your choice. I feel all cramped up using carbine length handguards, so I'm going low-pro gas block and longer handguards... that basically forces the free-float guards (a side benefit). Heck, you could put HGs on long enough the can sits down inside them (that's what I did for my 9mm)... that forces you to always use the can, though....

Again, I feel it's hard for us to tell you what's best here..... so much personal preference involved. IF *I* were picking parts for your gun, I'd go 11.5" w/ a 10" FF rail... but YOU have to pick what you like...

Another consideration for bbl length... 10.5" or so is the bare minimum most silencer manufacturers will warentee their cans with for .223. You may be more sensitive to ammo selection to avoid baffle strikes.

-rvb

 

[MikeDVB]

I really want to put a can on my current AR with the 16" barrel but I cringe at how long it will end up being with a can on it...

 

[aclark]

I think I missed touching on some of these points, but I will try to address them.

Yea, there are so many options with handguards it makes your head spin. It comes down to preference. Do you like carbine length handguards? If so, you could do fine w/ a std A2 front sight and handguards of your choice. I feel all cramped up using carbine length handguards, so I'm going low-pro gas block and longer handguards... that basically forces the free-float guards (a side benefit). Heck, you could put HGs on long enough the can sits down inside them (that's what I did for my 9mm)... that forces you to always use the can, though....

I like the idea you mentioned before about having a longer rail due to grip. I have an A2 with 9" rail on my 16" middy and I find that I could probably have gone low pro with a longer rail to stretch out more. I'm 6'4" so my reach is greater than some. One of the reasons I didn't go with the dissipator style is because of weight, I didn't want it to feel unbalanced. I am thinking 9" rail on the Pistol/SBR because I can stretch out most the way and use the grip I'm used to. Only difference would be a low pro block on the pistol/sbr. I suppose that does rule out the drop in, non free float.

Again, I feel it's hard for us to tell you what's best here..... so much personal preference involved. IF *I* were picking parts for your gun, I'd go 11.5" w/ a 10" FF rail... but YOU have to pick what you like...

Another consideration for bbl length... 10.5" or so is the bare minimum most silencer manufacturers will warentee their cans with for .223. You may be more sensitive to ammo selection to avoid baffle strikes.

-rvb

This is where I'm really conflicted. I had heard about the 10.5" for suppressors so that's why I put that as my bottom end length. I have also read that 11.5" are more reliable/smoother. I keep going back and forth between the two, and in the grand scheme of things I don't think the 1" will matter too much weight wise.

Thanks for talking it through with me.

 

[dubsac]

If you are around Indy, you could shoot my 10.5 noveske to get an idea, it's been 100% reliable. I too started it off as a pistol build till my paper work arrived. Def the way to go IMO

 

[aclark]

If love to but I'm in NWI. Maybe next time I'm down there for work I can get a hold of you.

 

[rvb]

This is where I'm really conflicted. I had heard about the 10.5" for suppressors so that's why I put that as my bottom end length. I have also read that 11.5" are more reliable/smoother. I keep going back and forth between the two, and in the grand scheme of things I don't think the 1" will matter too much weight wise.

I don't think 1" will really matter in the grand scheme. Since you say you set 10.5 as the min because of silencer use...... I will add if you wanted to go even shorter than 10.5, you could use a .30cal can. IIRC, AAC warentees their .30cal SDN6 down to ~7.5" w/ 5.56. Of course most .30 cal cans are an inch or two longer than their 5.56 counterparts, so you gain some of that length back.

-rvb