Army Corp of Engineers Properties

[eldirector]

Anyone up for a letter writing campaign?

Background:
Many Indiana DNR Recreation properties are actually owned by the Army Corp of Engineers (ACoE). These include Raccoon Lake, Monroe Reservoir, Brookville Reservoir, and many others. A list of ACoE properties in Indiana is here:Corps Lakes Gateway: Indiana Search 'ACoE' on INGO, and you will get several threads on this topic.

Currently it is against Federal Regulations to carry a firearm on ACoE property. The penalty can be pretty steep: up to $5000 fine and up to 6 months in prison. While some DNR employees (who are charged with enforcing these regulations) may not be aware of this, I assure you that the DNR main offices are. ACoE regulations here:http://www.lrl.usace.army.mil/opto/article.asp?id=77. The DNR's answer to "Can I carry": http://iot.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1469

However, the regulations DO allow for a few exceptions. Law enforcement (obviously), folks visiting a shooting range, and hunters (with some restrictions). Most importantly, the District Commander can give written permission to carry your firearm. See Title 36 - Chapter III - Part 327.13 (4) of the Code of Federal Regulations.

So, if you are interested in visiting one of these properties, I encourage you to send a letter to Colonel Luke Leonard, the District Commander in Louisville. To make it easier, I have prepared a draft (see below). Note: rather than ask for the world, this letter makes a very specific request to allow carry within my own state. Yes, we could ask for some sort of blanket permission, but the District Commander can only grant permission within his district. Baby steps...

<cut here>

Colonel Luke Leonard
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Louisville
P.O. Box 59
Louisville, KY 40201-0059

Dear Col. Leonard,
I have been issued a License to Carry Handgun by the Indiana State Police. I also routinely visit Indiana’s many State Parks and Recreation Areas. Indiana State Law does not forbid licensed individuals from carrying their personal protection handguns in State Parks. However, it has come to my attention that several of these recreation areas are Corp property. By Federal Regulation, individuals may not carry their personal protection handguns on these properties unless certain criteria are met (Title 36 - Chapter III - Part 327.13 (4) of the Code of Federal Regulations).

These regulations state that one must receive written permission from the District Commander to possess a loaded firearm on Corp property. As such, I am asking for written permission to carry my personal protection handgun on Army Corp of Engineers’ properties managed in partnership with the Indiana Department of Natural Resources, within the bounds of Indiana State Law.

I would very much like to visit these properties with my family, and am looking forward to your response.

Sincerely,

Your Name
Your Address

 

[jgreiner]

I'm in. I will be sending my letter this weekend. Thanks!!!!!

Lets try to get a bunch of us to all write in for permission!!!!

 

[eldirector]

I'm in. I will be sending my letter this weekend. Thanks!!!!!

Lets try to get a bunch of us to all write in for permission!!!!

By a bunch, he means a large percentage of our 22,000 members! Imagine getting 5000 written requests in a week.....

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Isn't there another Federal move afoot to bring the ACoE in line just like the National Parks were a few years ago? I thought for sure I've read something about that already being in the works.

-J-

 

[jgreiner]

Isn't there another Federal move afoot to bring the ACoE in line just like the National Parks were a few years ago? I thought for sure I've read something about that already being in the works.

-J-

It's been parked since 2011. A House bill.

 

[Hawkeye]

Keep the group osted on how this goes. Maybe this htread should be a "sticky" to keep it at the top?

I could see a situation develop where a handful of us write in over a cuople of weeks and maybe the first 2 or 3 get approval. Then if more and more letters start arrivign, the whole thing could come to a halt. Either a "Holy ***** - whats going on here?" kind of halt or a perhaps mroe typical bureaucratic mud pit "Well we'll get to your letter when we have time" kind of halt.

My concern is that a career bureaucrat will look at this from a career-risk perspective. the easy and "careeer-safe" thing for COL Lenard to do is either take no action (probalby not required to) or to deny. Especially if he gets a lot of requests. He'd probably view this as hving no potential positive impact on hsi career but a real minefiled if he starts granting permission and then something goes wrong...

 

[jgreiner]

Keep the group osted on how this goes. Maybe this htread should be a "sticky" to keep it at the top?

I could see a situation develop where a handful of us write in over a cuople of weeks and maybe the first 2 or 3 get approval. Then if more and more letters start arrivign, the whole thing could come to a halt. Either a "Holy ***** - whats going on here?" kind of halt or a perhaps mroe typical bureaucratic mud pit "Well we'll get to your letter when we have time" kind of halt.

My concern is that a career bureaucrat will look at this from a career-risk perspective. the easy and "careeer-safe" thing for COL Lenard to do is either take no action (probalby not required to) or to deny. Especially if he gets a lot of requests. He'd probably view this as hving no potential positive impact on hsi career but a real minefiled if he starts granting permission and then something goes wrong...

El director wrote a year ago and got no response. he may look at it from the opposite...deny us all rights...and something happens at a park.....and they get the blame......

In my opinion, writing and asking simply can't hurt things. And if we are told no.....and something happens, we have a leg to stand on (assuming we are still alive).

 

[eldirector]

Isn't there another Federal move afoot to bring the ACoE in line just like the National Parks were a few years ago? I thought for sure I've read something about that already being in the works.

-J-

Yep.
Recreational Lands Self-Defense Act of 2011 (H.R. 1865) - GovTrack.us

Been in committee for over a year, though. I'm guessing it will die there.

 

[eldirector]

El director wrote a year ago and got no response. he may look at it from the opposite...deny us all rights...and something happens at a park.....and they get the blame......

In my opinion, writing and asking simply can't hurt things. And if we are told no.....and something happens, we have a leg to stand on (assuming we are still alive).

That's why I take the stance that we are all already perfectly able to carry at ANY other State Park. The DNR has already said that we are welcome on THEIR property. The ACoE is the ONLY land use agency that restricts us.

I don't expect to get "permission". However, a few thousand requests may get someone's attention. Maybe we can get HR1865 moving again with some pressure from INSIDE the Corp?

 

[ChrisBarnes]

I will put mine in the mail a.s.a.p. Thank you for this information.

 

[RockCreekRelics]

Sounds great I'm in. I'll send mine this weekend unless you guys think it would be more effective to wait and get a several of us on board and send them in at the same time.

 

[littletommy]

I'm in, I have a lot of ACoE property around me.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Never been but I'm all for a little constructive civil irritation

 

[fastwally]

In the mail!

 

[Kaardomos]

It's been parked since 2011. A House bill.

There's also an amendment that passed on the FY 2013 energy and water related agencies appropriation bill: NRA-ILA | Nunnelee Amendment Passes in U.S. House Committee on Appropriations

 

[KG1]

There's also an amendment that passed on the FY 2013 energy and water related agencies appropriation bill: NRA-ILA | Nunnelee Amendment Passes in U.S. House Committee on Appropriations

Interesting. Gonna have to keep an eye on this. Looks like it made it through the committee phase but still has a way to go.

Let's hope it can survive because it looks like the other opportunity is dead in the water. They really need to keep pushing to end this nonsensical trap that legally carrying citizens may unknowingly fall into if they are not aware that they crossed an unmarked boundary.

Open up the land so that everyone can enjoy the properties while also choosing to exercise their 2A rights.

 

[jgressley2003]

I have a resevoir near my house that is an ACoE and a funny thing is that there are no signs saying that they prohibit firearms. The only sign they have is back by the boat ramp that says "Safety Zone No Hunting"

 

[philo]

On the majority of the reservoirs, the water, dam, and dam access roads belong to CoE. The rest is state land and therefore good to go.

 

[Kedric]

I'll be happy to send a letter in. Probably won't go out until Monday, though.

 

[eldirector]

On the majority of the reservoirs, the water, dam, and dam access roads belong to CoE. The rest is state land and therefore good to go.

You might want to verify that. The ACoE "owns" everything inside of their project boundary. This is typically MUCH more than just the water and dam. Check the maps linked in the OP. While the DNR may manage the property, it is only "theirs" through a partnership. I've verified this both online (ACoE website and DNR website) and in conversations with DNR Recreation and Land Management Staff.

That's why all this is important. So many Hoosiers are unknowingly breaking a Federal Regulation that could land them in hot water. The regs need changed! Or a few thousand permission slips passed out.