Crossbreed suing holstermakers ??

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  • Taurahe

    Plinker
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    Dec 14, 2013
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    Greenwood
    Mods, if this is better suited elsewhere please move.

    First let me say that this is a long read but there is a lot of solid information here and worth the read, especially for ANYONE who makes holsters. I am going off the assumption the writer of this has completed their homework, but I interwebbed a few noted pieces of info, and they were indeed correct.

    Hybrid Holster History

    The rundown……
    Crossbreed has apparently issued cease and desist letters to makers of hybrid holsters for patent infringement on a very broad patent that may or may not even apply to their claim of patent infringement. Crossbreed is claiming to have invented the hybrid holster, when as shown in the article and with minor web sleuthing, it existed several years before Crossbreed came along as a company. I am by no means a legal authority of any kind, so this is based of what I feel is a sound and logical argument by the author.

    After reading and rereading the information provided, here are my thoughts.

    I think this a strong arm tactic on the part of crossbreed to eliminate competition in a wide and diverse market. This is apparently not their first attempt at doing so either. I find it rather appalling from a personal standpoint that a company who touts their religious beliefs as a selling point would choose such an underhanded tactic in a free market economy. And all of this is based on a product they clearly did not invent. They copied another’s creation, and now want to claim infringement by others who have copied and innovated the same design they copied to begin with.
    From my understanding, the patent is by itself very broad, and as stated in the writing, would cover just about every hybrid holster on the market, regardless of how it was designed. The problem with is, the Hybrid holster existed several years before Crossbreed, and was marketed and sold. Therefore, it cannot be an original idea. That would be like me trying to patent a round metallic device covered in a layer of rubber to maintain road contact…… and shutting down every tire manufacturer…. Unless they paid me licensing fees, even though the wheel came long before I did.


    If you click the links in the article, the existence of products prior to Crossbreed has been thoroughly discussed on other forums, regarding this very issue, so I feel it is safe to say that this is by no means a non-issue, and is something that needs to be taken seriously. While I am not a holster maker, and this has no direct impact on me, I have done great business with several holster makers here on the forum and will support them wholeheartedly by not supporting crossbreed or buying their products. On the various forums where this has been discussed it seems the general concensus is that this is frivolous at best, but the fact that they would even try these shenanigans goes against my personal beliefs, and is something I will do what I can to take a stand against.
     

    KokomoDave

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    That what the courts will have to decide. In the mean time, I doubt they can get all holster makers to comply.
     

    Roadie

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    Feb 20, 2009
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    I have disliked Crossbreed's business practices for years. Going around to gun websites, bashing their competition, the lawsuits, etc etc. It's disgusting.
    Personally, I think they can't handle the competition. Competitors are coming out with similar quality, for less money..

    Love my MDJ Adjustable retention "Crossbreed ripoff" :D
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    I followed the herd and bought one for my P220. Everyone here was talking about how comfortable and high quality they were. It's easily my least favorite holster and is now in my "junk I bought and am not quite ready to throw out" drawer. I was not impressed with the comfort, the quality, or the bulkiness of the design. To hear they are indulging in such business practices certainly doesn't help them in my eyes. Safe to say I'll not send them any more money.
     

    ghuns

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    They have money to pay lawyers. They are hoping that some of their competitors don't. If they spend a couple hundred thousand on lawyers, eliminate a couple competitors, and as a result, increase their sales by more than their legal bills, they win.

    While their claims may be questionable, they are still a step up the ladder form these arseholes...

    Intellectual Ventures

    Patent trolling is big business. You don't have to make anything. Just buy up some patents and sue, or just threaten to sue, companies for infringing on them. They have even went to the trouble to find a court who is very sympathetic to their cause who is also known for not granting changes in venue. File your lawsuits in the US District Court, East Texas and the success rate for this kind of suit is close to 90%.
     

    jesse485

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    Apr 21, 2008
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    I followed the herd and bought one for my P220. Everyone here was talking about how comfortable and high quality they were. It's easily my least favorite holster and is now in my "junk I bought and am not quite ready to throw out" drawer. I was not impressed with the comfort, the quality, or the bulkiness of the design. To hear they are indulging in such business practices certainly doesn't help them in my eyes. Safe to say I'll not send them any more money.

    +1 I had an MTAC too, and even though it was $10 or so more than the Crossbreed, it was a far superior holster. Heck, I use a Crossbreed ripoff I got off eBay for like $25, and I prefer it to the "real" thing. Crossbreed had good customer service for me, but the product is nothing special. Hearing they are sue happy makes it even less likely that I'll bother looking at them for anything else.
     

    24Carat

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    I'm not sure who's running the company these days, but I personally believe it's strayed far from the path that Mark had intended. Since his passing a few years ago, a lot of things seem to have changed.

    I just relayed this same opinion to them and really interested to hear their response.
     

    HoughMade

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    Oct 24, 2012
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    It reminds of the story (true or not) about when Bill Gates was trying to come up with a Graphic User Interface (ultimately, Windows) to rival what Apple had on the Mac. This is supposedly a conversation between Steve Jobs and Bill Gates:

    "You're ripping us off!", Steve shouted, raising his voice even higher. "I trusted you, and now you're stealing from us!"

    But Bill Gates just stood there coolly, looking Steve directly in the eye, before starting to speak in his squeaky voice.

    "Well, Steve, I think there's more than one way of looking at it. I think it's more like we both had this rich neighbor named Xerox and I broke into his house to steal the TV set and found out that you had already stolen it."

    Oh, and by the way- Old Faithful sold me the materials and directions, but I made it...back off, Crossbreed:

    attachment.php
     

    IndyGunSafety

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    How would you feel if you came out with a very popular product, and everyone started making knock-offs? There are several manufacturers that make holsters JUST LIKE the Crossbreed line. I say let the courts run their course. I'm still going to carry everything I carry in a Crossbreed. I don't fault them at all. Let the facts lie where they may.
     

    chezuki

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    Behind Bars
    How would you feel if you came out with a very popular product, and everyone started making knock-offs? There are several manufacturers that make holsters JUST LIKE the Crossbreed line. I say let the courts run their course. I'm still going to carry everything I carry in a Crossbreed. I don't fault them at all. Let the facts lie where they may.

    Missed the part where crossbreed IS a knockoff huh?
     

    Booya

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    Missed the part where crossbreed IS a knockoff huh?

    You may be right about this, but the sad part is it doesn't even matter in most cases. Our patent system is severely broken (I'm not a fan), but often times you don't even need to be the one to invent something, you just have to be the first one to patent it and it's yours. There are exceptions to every rule and patents can get very tricky (this is why there are lawyers and the like that just specialize in the field). Sometimes they breed innovation when someone has to find a workaround and sometimes they can totally stymie innovation. Blatent knockoffs, I say go after them. Anything that just improved on a product, leave it be. In addition to that, companies like these need to tread very lightly with their cease and desist(s). If you go around bullying small companies just to run them off that's in poor taste for sure, but when you muscle up on someone willing to fight you risk having your (patent) claims completely revoked (lose your patent or at least an important part of it), especially when someone can prove they were making and selling before your patent was issued.
     

    CountryBoy19

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    Missed the part where crossbreed IS a knockoff huh?

    I'm not going to argue about this, but when you compare the very first "hybrid" holster, it's not the same as what Crossbreed markets. The only semblance is that a solid piece of leather supports the holster part and there are clips attached to the leather, not the holster.

    Crossbreed took that idea (which wasn't patented) and modified it to be more easily produced and they continued to improve the design. At which point numerous manufacturers came along and directly copied their designs.

    So where do you draw the line on what infringement is and what it isn't? That's a tough question. In my opinion, Crossbreed's holsters do NOT infringe on the original hybrid holster design as I understand it. However, where crossbreed crossed the line was filing for patents numerous times and fighting VERY hard to get a patent that covered a broad-sweeping share of the market, of which they were NOT the originator of the general idea. I think it's a VERY crappy thing for them to do. To protect what improvements they made, they covered their predecessor in the patent process...

    Also, IIRC, Mark Craighead passed away a few years ago; the guy that originally started the company is not the one in control. I have a feeling this is a situation where one guy starts something with fairly honest intentions, and he passes on and those that follow him get greedy.

    Also, FWIW, I don't believe a design has to be a completely original idea to be patent worthy. I believe patents can be received on IMPROVEMENTS to already existing designs as long as those existing designs aren't currently covered under a patent. A good example would be the numerous improvements Dillon Aero made to the GE mini-gun after the patents had expired. Dillon, by improving a design that had previously been patented, and then patenting the improvements it made, has essentially cornered the market on the M134/MK44 minigun.

    Ultimately, I think the ONLY person/company that has a chance at winning this is the company that originally developed the hybrid design and if they want to totally squash Crossbreed, they better have proof that they are the ones that developed Crossbreed's improvements to the design before Crossbreed did. Otherwise, at best, they will only succeed at getting their design removed from the umbrella of Crossbreed's patent. This would leave Crossbreed's patent mostly in-tact.
     
    Last edited:

    Thegeek

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    IANAL: I was working to try and file a patent. There are two questions that seemed to really define the scope. My guess is that Crossbreed is trying to argue those two. #1 is what are you doing differently that is significant enough to warrant a patent. #2 is this currently available in the consumer market.

    I think they're going to have a hard time proving either. But, the filing can grant them a provisional patent. Someone else has to step up and prove that Crossbreed took it from them. That's where the one with the most money to throw at it wins.
     
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