Is a AR with a gas piston system the best of both worlds?

[24Carat]

I've been reading a lot of Mini-14 (have a 188) vs AR threads and wondered what drawbacks the AR crowd has experienced with this platform with the purported "cleaner, maintenance free" aspect of the piston design? Have been looking at a Core 15. Found an amazing price, or at least a price I find attractive.

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[fire259]

 

[mettle]

I've been reading a lot of Mini-14 (have a 188) vs AR threads and wondered what drawbacks the AR crowd has experienced with this platform with the purported "cleaner, maintenance free" aspect of the piston design? Have been looking at a Core 15. Found an amazing price, or at least a price I find attractive.

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There are other brands who have some sort of reputation you may think about looking into when considering piston ARs.
LWRC, LMT, etc.
They are more than your 'attractive' price; but, they are also names who have some sort of a reputation that is known by somebody.
CMMG, SIG,Ruger
CMMGs rifle is $999

 

[24Carat]

There are other brands who have some sort of reputation you may think about looking into when considering piston ARs.
LWRC, LMT, etc.
They are more than your 'attractive' price; but, they are also names who have some sort of a reputation that is known by somebody.
CMMG, SIG,Ruger
CMMGs rifle is $999

Thanks, it definitely warrants more research. About the system though, I know purist probably lose their lunch about this "bastardization" but what are the hands on impressions?

 

[churchmouse]

A good and trusted friend with many firearms has 2. He swears by them but also stills is high on the blow back original design. I have fired both back to back. I find them different in a positive way with both showing good performance. JMHO

 

[windellmc]

There can be issues with carrier tilt since the AR upper was never designed to have offset forces pushing the bolt carrier. Other than use on suppressed weapons which are known for excessive powder fouling I think it is a solution looking for a problem.

If you really want a piston system I would look at the SCAR, HK, or AK variants. They were designed that way from the ground up which is almost always superior to a Frankensteined system.

 

[DialTone301]

If you aren't shooting full auto or suppressed I don't see the need for it.

 

[223 Gunner]

He probably does not want to spend the money for a SCAR or HK, Good AK's can be had in that price range.

 

[mettle]

Thanks, it definitely warrants more research. About the system though, I know purist probably lose their lunch about this "bastardization" but what are the hands on impressions?

My opinion?
Buy what u want. But you may have more satisfaction out of a real piston gun. I owned a sig for a while, it is an elaborate design and a different feel / experience altogether.
but it was built as a piston gun.
instead of parts gun, a hybrid, why not a real deal. ?

 

[churchmouse]

My opinion?
Buy what u want. But you may have more satisfaction out of a real piston gun. I owned a sig for a while, it is an elaborate design and a different feel / experience altogether.
but it was built as a piston gun.
instead of parts gun, a hybrid, why not a real deal. ?

^^^THIS^^^^

 

[loki.fish]

If you're not shooting suppressed, it means the gas won't blow back into the chamber, and into your face. The drawback is, it's a little heavier.

If you're going to shoot suppressed, you might as well go DI, as the suppressor will cause the gases to come back anyway.

I have a Sig 556 that I enjoy shooting, but when I put my suppressor on it, I get a face full of gas. It's worse for me because I shoot left handed. Not sure how bad it would be for a right handed shooter.

 

[jayhawk]

Here's an exerpt from an interview with John Noveske that you might find interesting:

source: Defense Review - Noveske Rifleworks N4 Light Recce Carbine: John Noveske Interview, Part One

Crane: Do you have any plans to do a piston gun?

Noveske: We have piston plans, but we don’t have any plans of putting it in production, because it’s…I don’t think it’s necessary. I’ve got piston guns here from other makers, and they’re dirty, and I don’t see…

Crane: Whadya’ mean "dirty"?

Noveske: Open up the bolt and look inside, and it’s dirty inside. The whole thing about them running clean is not necessarily…o.k., let me back up. I only run the guns with suppressors for testing when I did my comparison, and with suppressors, direct-impingement and piston-operated were both very dirty, ’cause the blowback comes to the chamber, not the gas tube. And, I’m not real happy with the piston systems that I’ve shot and examined, so it’s just to me, it’s not…

Crane: Well, the piston…the advantage for a piston with a suppressor on there is supposedly it doesn’t blow all the gunk back in your face.

Noveske: O.k., but what you’re not paying attention to is that all that crap comes back through the chamber, not the gas tube. On a piston gun or gas-impingement, the case is being extracted while the suppressor is still under pressure. Now you have all the pressure in that suppressor exiting both out the front and the back.

Crane: Right, but you’re saying the piston gun doesn’t solve that?

Noveske: It does not solve that. They’re both dirty.


Crane: So then how come you hear about guys saying yeah, when they’re shootin’ the direct gas impingement guns suppressed, or whatever, they’re gettin’ a lot of gas and particulate matter in their face, whereas with the piston, that it dissipates that a bit, or whatever.

Noveske: Maybe they had a different experience.

Crane: Hm. So, in other words, you’re saying that basically the piston doesn’t really offer any real advantage for that.

Noveske: What I’m saying, with a suppressor, direct-impingement and gas-piston both run dirty, and even a blowback gun or a delayed-blowback gun, like an H&K [Heckler & Koch], or any other operating system–I don’t really care what operating system you have–on an auto-loader, with a sound suppressor, they’re gonna’ all run dirty.

Crane: Right. Now, is a piston gun gonna’ put any less gas and particulate matter in your face, or are you gonna’ get the same amount?

Noveske: All a piston gun is gonna’ do different from gas impingement with a suppressor is reduce the amount that is coming through the gas tube. The pistongun is gonna’ eliminate that. I am not a scientist, but from my observations in shooting and examining the guns afterwards, it appears that the vast majority of the gas coming through is coming through the chamber. And, one example is go look at any of the HK91 or HK93-type rifles. Those have the fluted chamber and delayed blowback, and the cases are always black just like the case fired out of thegun with a suppressor. That’s because the case is extracting while it is still under pressure, and you have gas blowing back along the case as it’s blowing out, and covering it with carbon. And, that’s what’s happening with any autoloader with a suppressor. The cases all have carbon on them, because gas is escaping around the case out the chamber and into the receiver.


[DefenseReview received the following post-interview via email from John Noveske: "Also, we should mention the poor choice of platform for the piston conversion on a round receiver bore as found on the M16/M4 system. All other piston type systems out there utilize a railed receiverdesign, like the M14, AK-47, M249, FAL and so on. The round receiver bore design used on the M4 is only acceptable for the standard op system. The carrier and bolt expand on axis with the bore under the normal gas impingement cycle, but on a pistongun , you run into off center impulse issues with carrier tilt and incorrectly designed carrier contact points. Some designs attempt to address the carrier tilt problem with over sized carrier tails and rollers. I do not believe the receiver extension should be used in this manor. I know many people are very happy with their piston weapons. This is not meant as a knock on the piston conversion systems out there, but as a philosophical dialogue focused the new physiological relationships applied to the M16/M4 platform through the introduction of an operating system which has traditionally been applied to receivers with rails for the bolt and/or carrier. I would rather see an entirely new weapon system designed for the piston from the ground up. I believe there several outfits currently working on this."]

 

[figley]

There can be issues with carrier tilt since the AR upper was never designed to have offset forces pushing the bolt carrier. Other than use on suppressed weapons which are known for excessive powder fouling I think it is a solution looking for a problem.

If you really want a piston system I would look at the SCAR, HK, or AK variants. They were designed that way from the ground up which is almost always superior to a Frankensteined system.

this is it, in a nutshell.

 

[windellmc]

this is it, in a nutshell.

Yeah but the Noveske interview was much better than my synopsis. At least I liked it better.

 

[patience0830]

I just learned why I don't need a piston upper.. Guess the supressor will just have to hang out on my Tennyson Champion.

Now, anybody worked up a subsonic .223 load for a 15" bbl?

 

[figley]

Yeah but the Noveske interview was much better than my synopsis. At least I liked it better.

I got to, "I don't think it's necessary", and gave up. (TL;DR)

 

[figley]

I just learned why I don't need a piston upper.. Guess the supressor will just have to hang out on my Tennyson Champion.

Now, anybody worked up a subsonic .223 load for a 15" bbl?

What if I told you where you could find everything you ever wanted to know about .223 and 5.56 ammunition, or double your money back?

:: Ammo Oracle

It's in there somewhere, but I'm not going to do all the legwork for you.

 

[the1kidd03]

it's not necessary....I like to stick with my "old fashioned" design...but one thing I did like about the new piston driven setup they're replacing the saw with is virtually NO heat transfer back to the bolt....you could unload a mag on full auto and pretty much open it up and hold the bolt without scorching your hand....not a HUGE deal, but will definitely help with the longevity of the components' life

 

[edporch]

I've always preferred a piston/operating rod type design.
I also don't use a suppressor.

My LWRC upper runs much cleaner than my standard Colt AR15 A2 HBAR.

The HBAR will begin requiring the Forward Assist in the 350 round neighborhood, and the LWRC hasn't shown a limit as of yet.

Just cut to the chase use what YOU LIKE, because these threads on this subject ALWAYS end up with some saying they like them and others saying you don't "need" 'em.

 

[Tombs]

I've been reading a lot of Mini-14 (have a 188) vs AR threads and wondered what drawbacks the AR crowd has experienced with this platform with the purported "cleaner, maintenance free" aspect of the piston design? Have been looking at a Core 15. Found an amazing price, or at least a price I find attractive.

G T Distributors Product Detail

No it isn't.

An AR with a looser chamber and as a rifle not a carbine... That's the best of both worlds.