Working with a gun in your hand

[TFin04]

TFin04, I'm sorry, I don't even understand your first post. Is a "fatal funnel" what the college kids are pounding beers with these days? Seriously: Are you saying that the games will cause me to stand 'frozen' in fear if bad things happen?

The fact that you don't know what the fatal funnel is shows even more that gun games are not training. They can be PRACTICE, but they are not training.

Training is having an instructor who knows more than you do on any given subject passing that knowledge down to you. Once you understand the skill sets, you can practice them. Gun games can be practice.

Gun games are better than what most shooters with concealed handguns do (nothing), but they can (and do) create just as many bad habits as they enforce good ones. Larry Vickers calls them 'training scars.'

 

[rvb]

The fact that you don't know what the fatal funnel is shows even more that gun games are not training.

• That part was a supposed to be a joke, hence the little laughing guy. I find lots of "tactical terms" commical and over complicated... sorry. just my humor.
• I've already said games don't teach tactics. Guess I'll say it again...
• games dont teach tactics
• I do think games do teach good gun handling
• I disagree that games will cause me to forget the concepts of cover/movement/etc/etc

My question and the part I didn't understand was:

Are you saying that the games will cause me to stand 'frozen' in fear if bad things happen?

Or, after re-reading, perhaps you mean 'frozen' in place because I wasn't using cover through doorways/etc?

Either way, I guess the answer doesn't really matter because I disagree that I'll feel inclined to stand still in the middle of a hail of bullets just because I might have done so in a match stage... I hope to never test it. If I'm wrong you have my permission to say "I told you so."

As I often joke, the odds of my getting involved in an actual gun fight this weekend are very, very low. The odds of me getting involved in a match are pretty damn good... I focus accordingly. <- thingy that lets you know this is a joke.

-rvb

-rvb

 

[TFin04]

Either way, I guess the answer doesn't really matter because I disagree that I'll feel inclined to stand still in the middle of a hail of bullets just because I might have done so in a match stage... I hope to never test it. If I'm wrong you have my permission to say "I told you so."

And yet we see facts from real world scenarios that prove otherwise.

How about deceased cops (RIP ) found with empty shell casings in their pockets? Years of being yelled at on the range while practicing reloads for dumping their brass carried over when the SHTF.

I've had the unfortunate opportunity to be involved in a few incidents where the fecal matter was hitting the proverbial air circulation device. You don't "think," you act. You act upon what your muscle and brain memory says to do. You may not think you'll stand in a doorway and get hammered, but you've spent years conditioning yourself to do just that. It comes back to that whole rise to the occasion quote.

Nobody can say either way what will happen, and I hope for your sake you shoot the bastards as quickly and efficiently as I saw on your video, but I won't put myself in a situation that programs my mind to do things I DON'T want to do in real life.

 

[mercop]

So, if I understand correctly, it sounds then that the added stress, excitement, etc. of SWAT training is exposing weaknesses in their basic gun handling skills. Think that's about right?

What gun handling? When you ask most shooters including police about gun handling they think only in terms of reloads and malfunction drills, not doing stuff with your other hand when you have a gun in the other. Ask a cop about weapons retention and he will most likely think about retaining his gun in the holster, not out. What should be obvious is not.

I am sure my next comment will draw some fire from the open carry crowd but if you show me an exposed gun I will show you one that I can take and teach others to take. I will isolate the gun hand and snap the elbow and smash your head into to the wall. It can also be done easily if handcuffed in front. I have done so dozens of times to officers with retention holsters. I do it all the time in classes when people have concealment holsters.

Any type of shooting competition will do a poor job of simulating the chaos of a real situation where there will likely be several people around, even if not involved, lots of movement, noise and your loved ones in dimly lit, unfamiliar environments.

 

[Coach]

I am into the you do your thing and I will do mine thing. But my educated guess that if you took too equal people and trained one in IDPA for a year, took the other and did nothing but force on force for a year, the person who did the force on force would own the IDPA guy in a conversation distance confrontation.

Since I have never competed in IDPA I can only assume that nobody hits you or tries to take your gun. You are focused on time and keeping the gun running. In real life the shots that scare the **** out of you are the ones you almost take, not the ones you do.

Again, people fixate on the gun and not the fight. If during extreme stress you have your "best" tool in your hand you are more likely to use it for problems that could be dealt with other options. It is easy to escalate, hard to deescalate.

Here is a for instance, during out last non ballistic combative pistol course in Quakertown PA I had the guy that was hosting put on headgear and grab and airsoft. He held it down at his side. I told him that as soon as he was ready attempt to shoot me with it as I stood at arms distance. When he dropped his shoulder I pimped slapped the side of his head at about 50% speed. His head whipped around, his knees buckled and he dropped the gun without firing a shot. If I had a gun in my hand I would have been likey to use it and traded shots with him. Maybe ending in a mutual slaying. If you think this is BS ask some of the folks that attended the edged weapon course in Indy a few weeks back.

You have got to keep both of your hands in the fight. There are times when it is prudent to reholster, like if you are not covering down on something. This takes forever to get through to some people, if you have no area to cover with your pistol, holster it.

This stuff is not pretty, it sucks to slip in dog **** running up step, or fall down steps with a gun in your hand, or fall on the ice. Ask me how I know The first time to get banged around with a gun in your hand should not be in response to a bump in the night at 0 dark thirty.- George

What do you mean by force on force. Shooting each other with airsoft? Fighting? Simunitions? Both? All of these?

Perhaps such a challenge/experiement could be arranged. I have never shot IDPA yet, but I do shoot some USPSA. My force on force training last happened in 1992, but I think I could survive some physical contact.

 

[longbow]

I like flashbangs or the real thing to clear rooms.....messy, but effective......if I can remember where I put them..........that is why I have insurance.......

 

[esrice]

This makes about as much sense as saying that racing on a track doesn't prepare you to drive on the street. Just because somebody is driving flat-out at the car's limits doesn't mean they can't tone it down and use a little common sense when they leave the racetrack. The only "habit" you develop is an absolute understanding of the thing you're driving fast.

That is an interesting comparison, and one I thought about after you posted it. But I think I will have to respectfully disagree. Here's why:

You take someone who's never driven a car before and teach them to drive a 200mph IndyCar. They learn the fundamentals of the controls, as well as passing, drafting, braking, etc. You work with this person long enough, and you could turn out one awesome race car driver.

Now, take that race car driver, and put him in Ford Taurus in the middle of Fishers. Yes, he could drive that car as fast as it will go in his world, but now he has to deal with other drivers, traffic signals, crossing pedestrians, inclement weather-- which is, coincidentally, called "defensive driving". I don't think he would fare too well in this new world. Sure he can make the car perform, but that won't do any good if he keeps blowing through stop signs and running over small children.

Now let's carry this back over to the 'gun world':

The IDPA practitioner is the race car driver. He can shoot, and he can shoot fast and accurately. His draw is perfect, his stance is excellent, and he wastes no movement in his actions. He is, by all standards, a great shooter.

But put Mr. IDPA in line at the 7-11 when some thug bursts in and puts a gun to his face. Without proper tactics, his gun doesn't even enter the picture at this point. Even if he got himself into a position to draw, what about the child in his arms that he scooped up, or the door handle that he is desparately trying to get open?

No, it is not tactical training, but you develop everything but the tactics.

This statement is correct, and the reason why most people will say that 'gaming' is not 'training'. The tactics that gaming doesn't provide is what will keep you alive in a force-on-force situation.

Good thread!

 

[cosermann]

What should be obvious is not.

Amazing. I guess I expected more from "professionals." Thanks for the insight.

 

[notasccrmom]

The IDPA practitioner is the race car driver. He can shoot, and he can shoot fast and accurately. His draw is perfect, his stance is excellent, and he wastes no movement in his actions. He is, by all standards, a great shooter.

You must be talking about a different IDPA.

To quote another thread/video: "Master in IDPA is like C Class in IPSC!"

Perhaps such a challenge/experiement could be arranged. I have never shot IDPA yet, but I do shoot some USPSA. My force on force training last happened in 1992, but I think I could survive some physical contact.

You know, this would be well worth the plane ticket to come and watch...

 

[Coach]

What gun handling? When you ask most shooters including police about gun handling they think only in terms of reloads and malfunction drills, not doing stuff with your other hand when you have a gun in the other. Ask a cop about weapons retention and he will most likely think about retaining his gun in the holster, not out. What should be obvious is not.

I am sure my next comment will draw some fire from the open carry crowd but if you show me an exposed gun I will show you one that I can take and teach others to take. I will isolate the gun hand and snap the elbow and smash your head into to the wall. It can also be done easily if handcuffed in front. I have done so dozens of times to officers with retention holsters. I do it all the time in classes when people have concealment holsters.

Any type of shooting competition will do a poor job of simulating the chaos of a real situation where there will likely be several people around, even if not involved, lots of movement, noise and your loved ones in dimly lit, unfamiliar environments.

Once the head gets smashed into a wall open/concealed is a moot point. The point of carrying is to prevent such treatment.

 

[Coach]

You must be talking about a different IDPA.

To quote another thread/video: "Master in IDPA is like C Class in IPSC!"

I''ll take the C class IPSC guy over most in a SHTF scenario.

 

[esrice]

You must be talking about a different IDPA.

Sorry, I don't know all the various games.

Insert [IDPA] [IPSC] [USPSA] here.

 

[mercop]

Every MCS course includes open hand combatives, impact weapons, edged weapons and firearms to some extent regardless of the focus in the class since we teach a system.

Anyone who would like to turn up for the class solely to participate in just some of the force on force is my guest as long as they sign the waiver.

And even without the wall smash it is relatively easy to isolate the gun arm and take the gun.

 

[notasccrmom]

Let me clarify for those that aren't versed in their gun games:

IDPA = funny little vest, can't drop mags, commonly mistaken for tactics training

IPSC = USPSA = cleats, raceguns, freestyle courses of fire, usually taken as tactics training by critics and just a game by devout followers.

Most gamers have no issue with calling USPSA/IPSC a game (as we've seen in this thread already) and taking it just as such. I see a lot of non-gamers assuming that gamers think that USPSA is door-kicking practice... don't worry, we know it isn't and don't take it as such. I'm a sponsored shooter, I shoot USPSA for what it is, a game, both competitive and fun. A side benefit is that it makes my gun handling under stress above average.

 

[agentl074]

Recently I was working with a SWAT team that had just added two new guys that had not yet been to a SWAT school. We were just getting them accustomed to clearing rooms and then eventually entire houses with a pistol in their hand. Sounds pretty simple doesn't it?

Ack! No! Bad Bad Bad Reminds me of MOUT training in Security Forces school when we had to clear buildings all day

 

[IndyGunSafety]

IDPA = funny little vest, can't drop mags,

I guess you don't know much about IDPA. Yes you can drop mags. You can even drop mags with rounds left in them, as long as you don't leave that position. A TACTICAL reload is not a TACTIC? Hmmmmm.....

 

[notasccrmom]

I guess you don't know much about IDPA. Yes you can drop mags. You can even drop mags with rounds left in them, as long as you don't leave that position.

Of course I know that you can in fact drop mags, my point being that there are lots of rules and exceptions to the rules to keep track of in IDPA. Doing so forces certain tactics that not everyone practices, such as shooting to slide lock or standing reloads. I prefer a game that allows the shooter to solve the problem as they see fit, that way if they want to practice their own tactics they aren't penalized, and if they want to game it up they aren't penalized for that either.

 

[mercop]

IDPA-IPSC....WTF...WTFC

 

[Coach]

Relatively easy

Every MCS course includes open hand combatives, impact weapons, edged weapons and firearms to some extent regardless of the focus in the class since we teach a system.

Anyone who would like to turn up for the class solely to participate in just some of the force on force is my guest as long as they sign the waiver.

And even without the wall smash it is relatively easy to isolate the gun arm and take the gun.

Sounds like with the proper training system and mindset we could save a lot of money on equipment with SWAT teams and police officers then and use the old Russian system of handing out equipment. "Just run to the battle and pick some stuff up off the ground." Or in this case take it away from someone else because that is relatively easy.

I am not talking about a class. I am talking about joe gamer here versus highly trained professional in a demonstration. One reputation versus another. Show me what relatively easy means. Perhaps I need this education. Perhaps I am walking around with mistaken confidence.

 

[IndyGunSafety]

I prefer a game that allows the shooter to solve the problem as they see fit, that way if they want to practice their own tactics they aren't penalized, and if they want to game it up they aren't penalized for that either.

This makes sense and I understand it. Like I said above, I would rather train with Ayoob all day. Maybe we are talking about 2 different things. I'm not saying IDPA is the BEST training. I'm only saying there is training value in it. There have to be rules in a competitive sport or it would be impossible to 'score'.

Mercop... what does this mean?

IDPA-IPSC....WTF...WTFC

I got the first 3, lol!