Definition of a Good Shot With a Handgun

[cedartop]

You used to be an AK?

I am not rugged enough to be an AK. Otherwise that might be a good analogy, semi-accurate, ugly, reliable, lefty friendly, a German from Russia, etc.

 

[Bosshoss]

At the risk of alienating RVB, which is not my intent because he is spot on. My criteria for "combat accuracy" is greater then that for "games". The A zone on an IPSC target is generous compared to the size of the good stuff a person would need to hit in real life. Many of the action shooting games favor speed as opposed to straight out accuracy. Especially on high round count stages. That said I agree 100% with what RVB is telling everyone. He is a wise man. It is possible to shoot at high speed and use your sights. The skills to shoot accurately are the same regardless of speed. It is just those more accomplished shooters can complete all the fundamentals in a more compressed time frame.

USPSA/IDPA/MultiGun/........ Are great practice and a lot of fun. My suggestion would be to shoot an event or even take a class. People might be surprised.

Some great points here and in this thread.
I won't comment on "combat accuracy" because I don't know what that is.
My thoughts on USPSA and other "speed" shooting sports are yes USPSA targets are "generous" size wise but when you throw in speed it is amazing how inaccurate you can become and how you can miss the "generous" target completely.
The USPSA game allows shooters to push the edge of their abilities in Accuracy AND Speed.
Keep in mind a decent USPSA shooter strives to get 90-95% of the points available in every match. This is while moving and reloading and shooting moving targets and partial targets. Not to mention the pressure of shooting on the clock and in front of your friends. All while trying to remember your plan to shoot the stage.
Also keep in mind that any USPSA shooter that is using that whole A zone on the target at speed can slow down and their groups will shrink in proportion to how much they slow down.
As a shooter shoots more competition they get better as their trigger control gets better and they SEE BETTER.
In RVB's video he is probably shooting 5 shots in 3/4 of a second. A newer or lower class shooter might take 2 1/2 seconds to do the same thing. The hardest thing to explain to a new or lower class shooter is that RVB is SEEING the exact same thing as they are when looking at the sights. He is just doing it faster. This come from practice.

Paper plate at 21 or even 30 feet at 1 shot per second is not difficult to do for even a new beginner. What happens when stress is added into the equation that accuracy will drop off a lot.
Again I don't really know what combat accuracy is but they say an attacker can cover that 21 feet in about 1 second.
If you had your gun out already you get your 1 shot as they advance under pressure. Will that be enough?
Now go watch Ryan's video again as he dumps 5 accurate rounds in way less than a second.
Which would you bet on?
Practice, practice, and then more practice.
Or better yet find a local club and start shooting some matches you will become a better shooter meet some great people and have some serious fun.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

How many bad guys are defeated by a miss or by a non lethal hit?

 

[Bosshoss]

How many bad guys are defeated by a miss or by a non lethal hit?

No clue
How many?

 

[VERT]

How many bad guys are defeated by a miss or by a non lethal hit?

Depends on the definition of "defeated". My guess is that there are many that run away when getting shot or shot at. This is purely a psychological stop. The bad guy gave up and the good guy won by default. But the bad guy was in no way stopped or defeated.

 

[gglass]

My 100-Yard claim to fame.



Long movie of the making of the target above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRJE87Gd86M

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Depends on the definition of "defeated". My guess is that there are many that run away when getting shot or shot at. This is purely a psychological stop. The bad guy gave up and the good guy won by default. But the bad guy was in no way stopped or defeated.

If the bad guy gives up and/or runs, how is that NOT stopped or defeated?

 

[VERT]

If the bad guy gives up and/or runs, how is that NOT stopped or defeated?

Like I said depends on how you define such things. To be honest having the bad guy running away is probably better for both of parties so long as the bullet that missed doesn't end up in the wrong place. I would consider Mr. BigBadandUgly running away to be defaulting or quitting. Irrelevant really, either way it is a win for the good guy.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Alright, I'll get to the point. I bring this up because of the "combat accurate" stuff above. Take it for what its worth, and understand I'm still working it in my own mind as well.

I was at the range and asked one of our instructors, a SWAT guy, to watch me do some holster drills at 25y and help pinpoint where I could improve. I was getting hits at about 1.3 seconds. His take was that was good, hit them with a quick shot to start changing their mind, confusing them, putting them in pain to slow them down, etc and then slow down and put the followup shots in the vitals. His idea was quick hits on target followed by accurate followup shots were your best chance of prevailing in a gun fight. This idea is bolstered by what one of our very experienced detectives who does most of our police action shootings said.

These are men with experience and expertise that greatly surpasses my own, and I respect their opinion. Its certainly worth mulling over.

 

[VERT]

Got you on this one BBI ol friend! Notice your experienced guys still recognize the need to place follow up shots in critical vital areas. In other words they are training and anticipating the necessity for physically incapacitating the assailant. I think there was thread started about some words of wisdom from Ken Hackathorn along the lines of not worrying about split times and concentrating on getting hits. That said there are some very experienced shooters in this thread that can do both on demand.

 

[BE Mike]

This is my limit for speed.... Even with a little trigger freeze on the first string.
@1:20 I run the ipsc classifier "can you count." 18A, 2C in 6.92 total time for both strings.
I saw the sights and called the shots. Think you can't aim and go fast?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXud0KiqYYw&t=1m20s



-rvb

That is very impressive shooting for sure, but if you had two bad guys standing there, wouldn't you want to put just a couple of rounds in each and then add more if the threat didn't go away? I don't see any practical aspect of emptying your sidearm, reloading and then eliminating the second threat. If I felt compelled to empty a magazine into someone, I'd have to question my caliber and quality of my ammo.

 

[VERT]

That is very impressive shooting for sure, but if you had two bad guys standing there, wouldn't you want to put just a couple of rounds in each and then add more if the threat didn't go away? I don't see any practical aspect of emptying your sidearm, reloading and then eliminating the second threat. If I felt compelled to empty a magazine into someone, I'd have to question my caliber and quality of my ammo.

That is a USPSA classifier stage. It is not really designed as a training drill for defensive shooting. It is testing a particular set of gun handling/shooting skills. In this case a Bill Drill with a set number of rounds fired, a reload under time and another Bill Drill. Shooters would get penalized for missing, shooting too many shots or not shooting enough shots. Hence the stage name of Can You Count. It is a fun stage.

 

[60Driver]

The poor OP just wanted a consensus on what "expert" standards were for accuracy and now we have a cadre of LEOs, top Competitors and instructors arguing the finer points of the high end of the trade

BBI's comments on getting a fast first hit, then follow ups are compelling in my mind and seem tactically sound, in his world. I think there are a few basics we all agree on, competition, LEO, MIL, or citizen defending themselves:

1. Only hits Count
2. "Good" (A's, High COM, etc) hits count more
3. Fast good hits count more still, the question is balancing speed v. accuracy
4. Accuracy degrades under pressure
5. Training to a high standard ensures performance when it counts.

Great thread!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The poor OP just wanted a consensus on what "expert" standards were for accuracy and now we have a cadre of LEOs, top Competitors and instructors arguing the finer points of the high end of the trade

BBI's comments on getting a fast first hit, then follow ups are compelling in my mind and seem tactically sound, in his world. I think there are a few basics we all agree on, competition, LEO, MIL, or citizen defending themselves:

1. Only hits Count
2. "Good" (A's, High COM, etc) hits count more
3. Fast good hits count more still, the question is balancing speed v. accuracy
4. Accuracy degrades under pressure
5. Training to a high standard ensures performance when it counts.

Great thread!

Good summary.

 

[Bfish]

This is my limit for speed.... Even with a little trigger freeze on the first string.
@1:20 I run the ipsc classifier "can you count." 18A, 2C in 6.92 total time for both strings.
I saw the sights and called the shots. Think you can't aim and go fast?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXud0KiqYYw&t=1m20s

-rvb

Hey RVB, maybe I should know this from reading other threads but what gun are you shooting?

 

[STEEL CORE]

I set up a handgun target up once and used stickers for the eyes and a mouth on the target head. Stepped back in front of my teenage son at the time, and with my Colt .45 took my first shot.....
right between the eyes, impressed my son.
best shot I ever made in his eyes
didnt let him know it was pure luck!!!

 

[VERT]

I set up a handgun target up once and used stickers for the eyes and a mouth on the target head. Stepped back in front of my teenage son at the time, and with my Colt .45 took my first shot.....
right between the eyes, impressed my son.
best shot I ever made in his eyes
didnt let him know it was pure luck!!!

Those are the best! I did something similar with a fly one time. Housefly landed on the target and was walking up the paper. Those in attendance told me to shoot it. From about seven yards all that was left was a .45 caliber hole surrounded by black fly guts. Never did admit that it was pure dumb luck.

 

[rvb]

At the risk of alienating RVB, which is not my intent because he is spot on. My criteria for "combat accuracy" is greater then that for "games". The A zone on an IPSC target is generous compared to the size of the good stuff a person would need to hit in real life. Many of the action shooting games favor speed as opposed to straight out accuracy. Especially on high round count stages. That said I agree 100% with what RVB is telling everyone. He is a wise man. It is possible to shoot at high speed and use your sights. The skills to shoot accurately are the same regardless of speed. It is just those more accomplished shooters can complete all the fundamentals in a more compressed time frame.

USPSA/IDPA/MultiGun/........ Are great practice and a lot of fun. My suggestion would be to shoot an event or even take a class. People might be surprised.

you aren't saying anything I really disagree with. The A zone is a throttle. Size/scoring/distance affect what I have to do/see to make the hit. true for the different games, or you can apply it to "the good stuff" as you do. nowhere did I say the a zone should be an accuracy goal. Quite the opposite, actually.

-rvb

 

[rvb]

You are absolutely correct that most cops and soldiers cannot shoot. But that does not change what I posted. Do me a favor and look at my post one more time.
.

Must be a semantics thing, cause I still don't get it.
Everybody recognizes that combat accuracy is totally different from bullseye accuracy and games accuracy?

its shooting. Aiming and pulling a trigger. Accuracy is accuracy. Should a "combat" shooter or "gamer" not strive to be able to shoot bullseye groups, too? Couldn't that possibly help in combat or the game?

the topic is what makes a shooter "good?" So a combat shooter is "good" when he attains that level of accuracy (whatever that is)?

-rvb

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Must be a semantics thing, cause I still don't get it.
Everybody recognizes that combat accuracy is totally different from bullseye accuracy and games accuracy?

its shooting. Aiming and pulling a trigger. Accuracy is accuracy. Should a "combat" shooter or "gamer" not strive to be able to shoot bullseye groups, too? Couldn't that possibly help in combat or the game?

the topic is what makes a shooter "good?" So a combat shooter is "good" when he attains that level of accuracy (whatever that is)?

-rvb

Accuracy vs time. I can be "combat accurate" much faster than I can be "bull's eye accurate". When I do bull's eye type shooting I'm working on fundamentals, and of course it helps when you start speeding up. I think part of the trick in "real world" settings is knowing how much time you'll be willing to sacrifice for how much gain in accuracy, and at what distances.