Should people feel shame for the deeds of their ancestors?

[jamil]

If it's so much better there then why live here?

This ranks amongst the silliest questions in a debate on civics. It's what kids say before they've learned to work out their differences. Essentially you're saying, "if you don't like my normal, then leave". And you're not the only INGOer to have ever posted that.

I am not a religious person. But I don't want the U.S. to give up its religious freedom to make you feel safer. The ultimate expression of individuality is personal belief and that must be protected. There certainly must be better ways to identify troublemakers than to assign it to an entire religion.

Odd response. Some things are better there. Some things are better here. Or are you just wanting to avoid the original topics?

You must admit, it's not an uncommon question. I've been asked that question when I express dismay with other people's philosophies. And you understand that complaining about the way other people think doesn't necessarily mean the only resolution is to leave.

 

[Trigger Time]

This ranks amongst the silliest questions in a debate on civics. It's what kids say before they've learned to work out their differences. Essentially you're saying, "if you don't like my normal, then leave". And you're not the only INGOer to have ever posted that.

I am not a religious person. But I don't want the U.S. to give up its religious freedom to make you feel safer. The ultimate expression of individuality is personal belief and that must be protected. There certainly must be better ways to identify troublemakers than to assign it to an entire religion.



You must admit, it's not an uncommon question. I've been asked that question when I express dismay with other people's philosophies. And you understand that complaining about the way other people think doesn't necessarily mean the only resolution is to leave.

no sorry that's not what I was asking. Or I would have said that. The way he was describing it along with his beliefs was like it was a better situation than here. So I was honestly asking why is America better suited for that way of life? I don't know any other way to put it.

 

[jamil]

no sorry that's not what I was asking. Or I would have said that. The way he was describing it along with his beliefs was like it was a better situation than here. So I was honestly asking why is America better suited for that way of life? I don't know any other way to put it.

I took what he said as, over there it hasn't turned into what you fear will happen here, so why do you fear it will happen here?

 

[NoAdmiration]

Firstly I am 5th generation Irish, which means that my ancestry is completely guiltless when it comes to the crime of slavery in the United States. In fact, being Irish it is more than likely we were slave at some point and given that I have blue eyes; it is also likely the one of my ancestors was unable to out run a Viking conqueror.
But I am an American; I've never even been to Ireland. It has no real meaning to me. So I have difficulty relating to people who put stock in their heritage either for positive or negative purposes. The genetic heritage of a person has no bearing on who they are.

My late grandfather served on The USS Enterprise during WWII. While I am proud of his service and pleased he survived the conflict, I cannot claim any of that reverence for myself as I was neither involved nor born when he stood on the flight deck watching Peal burn on the horizon.

I think the whole idea of collectivizing people by heritage is a bit primitive. It's an off shoot of our tribal past and isn't relevant in the modern world.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

No I said exactly what I meant to say. He has earned the right to live here. He is an American number one and a veteran number 2. I respect that. I just don't understand his reasoning but it's not my life. Just like I don't expect people to agree or understand my views on that issue. We will just move on. Nothing good will come of talking further on that

Not much to do with religion, really. I already own property here. Family. What I'm used to. Etc. I enjoyed not paying taxes. I hated 130 degree weather. I liked the people. I missed my family and friends stateside.

I could easily live in Cyprus, though. Jordan is too crowded. Qatar too hot. Both are better suited for folks who like city living.

 

[Trigger Time]

Not much to do with religion, really. I already own property here. Family. What I'm used to. Etc. I enjoyed not paying taxes. I hated 130 degree weather. I liked the people. I missed my family and friends stateside.

I could easily live in Cyprus, though. Jordan is too crowded. Qatar too hot. Both are better suited for folks who like city living.

The security issues is what would concern me. I just would worry me and my family would be a target.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The security issues is what would concern me. I just would worry me and my family would be a target.

I felt safer in Qatar then in Chicago.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Firstly I am 5th generation Irish, which means that my ancestry is completely guiltless when it comes to the crime of slavery in the United States. In fact, being Irish it is more than likely we were slave at some point and given that I have blue eyes; it is also likely the one of my ancestors was unable to out run a Viking conqueror.
But I am an American; I've never even been to Ireland. It has no real meaning to me. So I have difficulty relating to people who put stock in their heritage either for positive or negative purposes. The genetic heritage of a person has no bearing on who they are.

My late grandfather served on The USS Enterprise during WWII. While I am proud of his service and pleased he survived the conflict, I cannot claim any of that reverence for myself as I was neither involved nor born when he stood on the flight deck watching Peal burn on the horizon.

I think the whole idea of collectivizing people by heritage is a bit primitive. It's an off shoot of our tribal past and isn't relevant in the modern world.

I agree in part so far as the deeds of those who came before us does not make us personally better or greater, but I would argue that heritage is very important. As a descendant of a Revolutionary War veteran, I inherited a share in one of the most phenomenal events in world history, the existence of the United States, and that comes with it, the tireless work of thieves seeking to destroy the republic notwithstanding. I also inherited an example to emulate, and I certainly hope that should I ever be called to do so that I would be found equal to the task. It sets a standard to live up to which is very important.

Further, this heritage is a connection with the birth of the country where I was born, where I live, and to which I have all my societal connections, unlike the points of origin of ancestors in Europe to which I have no connection aside from DNA if one searches hard enough.

NoAdmiration, I would challenge you to reconsider your grandfather's service and ask yourself how important it is to you to live up to the example he set should we face a time of need--not optional wars for debatable reasons, but answering the call in a time of national peril.

 

[Jludo]

Pride has more definitions than shame does. Said differently, the opposite of every definition of pride is not shame.

True, but in This context it does fit.

 

[jamil]

True, but in This context it does fit.

Why should it? BoR said:

I can be proud of my country and those who created it without taking credit for their actions.
I can be saddened by the actions of some who preceded me without accepting blame for their misdeeds.
I am not due a plug nickle for the good deeds that created this country, and
I owe not one red cent for the fact that some men, long dead, owned slaves, even if they mistreated them.
​

The kind of pride he is speaking of is a sense of admiration for the good work of others. He is admitting no self involvement. The opposite feeling he gets for their misdeeds he reports as sadness. Sadness is an appropriate feeling for that, and sadness is not shame. Shame is not a necessary emotion when one recognizes the wrongdoing in other people. Shame is appropriate when one is guilty or responsible for some wrongdoing in oneself or others. It is misplaced when one has no responsibility at all.

This whole discussion is about the kind of shame that people wield as a weapon of conformance. The understanding of responsibility making the difference is a defense against people who use shame as a weapon. I've found that not much pisses "shamers" off more than refusing to feel ashamed for something I didn't do. It makes them powerless to shame me out of my personal liberty. That was made very clear to me when I refused to be ashamed for being a gun owner after Sandy Hook.

 

[foszoe]

I felt safer in Qatar then in Chicago.

Would you have felt the same level of safety if you were wearing a visible cross on a necklace?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Would you have felt the same level of safety if you were wearing a visible cross on a necklace?

Sure. Like I said, they had Christmas trees in the mall at Christmas time, sold hot cross buns at Easter, etc. There is a large Catholic community there, as a lot of the laborers are Filipino.

The biggest danger was how terrible at driving they were. Truly, truly terrible.

 

[KLB]

The biggest danger was how terrible at driving they were. Truly, truly terrible.

Sounds like Italy.

 

[jamil]

Sure. Like I said, they had Christmas trees in the mall at Christmas time, sold hot cross buns at Easter, etc. There is a large Catholic community there, as a lot of the laborers are Filipino.

The biggest danger was how terrible at driving they were. Truly, truly terrible.

I think I remember a post you made on that some time ago. Something to the effect that they drove like they didn't care because they literally didn't, because fate is not in their hands.

 

[foszoe]

Sure. Like I said, they had Christmas trees in the mall at Christmas time, sold hot cross buns at Easter, etc. There is a large Catholic community there, as a lot of the laborers are Filipino.

The biggest danger was how terrible at driving they were. Truly, truly terrible.

First, thanks to you, i read the Wikipedia article on Qatar, mostly because th a t was the one country I knew about the least. I see, according to the article, they practice Sharia law there and that Christian missionaries are not working in the open. That would make me wary because I do practice my faith actively and while not a missionary, I would, if asked, talk about my Christian faith.

Second, being Orthodox I know, second hand from those that had relatives under Ottoman rule, that Sharia law can be used to justify discrimination against Christians. For example, in Syria where Christian merchants had, in the past, to build their storefronts below street level so they had to look up to Muslim shoppers.

I don't consider myself anti-Muslim, as a Christian I strive to love all, but I would have reservations about encountering the one guy that would have a radical view in those countries, more so than in Chicago.

The above is mostly background commentary, I guess.

In your experience as law enforcement and working in country over there and hearing things, and I know this will be anecdotal, did the average Muslim provide tips to law enforcement in attempts to stop attacks? Did the average Muslim population provide leads/tips to help solve terrorist type attacks post event?

My uninformed mind has questioned in the past, "If the average Muslim Imam is against these things, why don't they speak out against them more?" Maybe i simply dont know where to look or havent tried hard enough. What American Muslim organizations have websites that are reflective of the typical American Muslim viewpoints? These questions have a legitimate answers, and I look forward to yours if it is something you have the background to answer. They are all asked simply in an inquisitive manner, not in an attempt to rile anyone up.

Unlike my comment in the 1911 thread.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Firstly I am 5th generation Irish, which means that my ancestry is completely guiltless when it comes to the crime of slavery in the United States. In fact, being Irish it is more than likely we were slave at some point and given that I have blue eyes; it is also likely the one of my ancestors was unable to out run a Viking conqueror.
But I am an American; I've never even been to Ireland. It has no real meaning to me. So I have difficulty relating to people who put stock in their heritage either for positive or negative purposes. The genetic heritage of a person has no bearing on who they are.

My late grandfather served on The USS Enterprise during WWII. While I am proud of his service and pleased he survived the conflict, I cannot claim any of that reverence for myself as I was neither involved nor born when he stood on the flight deck watching Peal burn on the horizon.

I think the whole idea of collectivizing people by heritage is a bit primitive. It's an off shoot of our tribal past and isn't relevant in the modern world.

Uh wut? If you're talking specific ancestry, ok. General ancestry, no. And for the record the same could be said for me.

 

[JollyMon]

So if any Irishman ever in the passed owned slaves ..... guess we are stretching to make people feel guilty of slave ownership

 

[Kutnupe14]

So if any Irishman ever in the passed owned slaves ..... guess we are stretching to make people feel guilty of slave ownership

Through they're long dead, yeah, they should've felt guilty owning slaves; that goes for anybody who owned slaves.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Do I feel shame because my ancestors owned slaves - don't know about shame, but I abhor the practice... so if you want to call that shame, sure. I absolutely disagree with the practice.

Do I think that my shame should lead to reparations? umm... no. In fact hell no.

We are a nation of people who all came here to flee one thing or another. We are a nation of refugees. Those that choose to rise above - have. That is the American way. Ask the Vietnamese refugee about the value of an education... Ask the Irish refugee who fled the potato famine. Ask the person who fled England looking for religious freedom - the list goes on and on. My ancestors were run out of the (then) boundaries of the US and ordered to be "exterminated" by the Governor of Missouri. That was in the 1800's - should I get reparations from the current residents of MO - or the descendants of the old residents of MO? Not on your life! If the wrongs were done generations ago - put it behind you, get over the butt hurt and make something of yourself.

 

[jamil]

Do I feel shame because my ancestors owned slaves - don't know about shame, but I abhor the practice... so if you want to call that shame, sure. I absolutely disagree with the practice.

Do I think that my shame should lead to reparations? umm... no. In fact hell no.

We are a nation of people who all came here to flee one thing or another. We are a nation of refugees. Those that choose to rise above - have. That is the American way. Ask the Vietnamese refugee about the value of an education... Ask the Irish refugee who fled the potato famine. Ask the person who fled England looking for religious freedom - the list goes on and on. My ancestors were run out of the (then) boundaries of the US and ordered to be "exterminated" by the Governor of Missouri. That was in the 1800's - should I get reparations from the current residents of MO - or the descendants of the old residents of MO? Not on your life! If the wrongs were done generations ago - put it behind you, get over the butt hurt and make something of yourself.

You invoked the "dog whistle". I'm told.