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Pistol Caliber Carbine - SC & USPSA
- Thread starter romack991
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Seems pretty simple. Looks like USPSA screwed up the commands, and the chamber flag should be mandatory like it is for 3-Gun. "Unload and Show clear". Verify it's clear then stick the flag in. Always be mindful of the muzzle and bag/cart as appropriate.
I shot PCC at our practice night last night to see if any issues became apparent before we include it in a match. We still had bay 1 set up from our last match, so got to run an actual stage with it a couple times. First, it was a hoot. make ready and unloading took maybe another 5-10 seconds to unflag/flag the gun, no big deal.
I tried one time using the staging area concept by going to the line bolt-open. I don't like this option and wish, like others above mentioned, USPSA had required the flag at all times. At FW, I'm going to say after the "range is clear" you HAVE to go directly from the shooting area to your case in the staging area if you do this option... no walking around w/ the RO to look at hits; that's the same as walking around with a gun out of its holster, IMO. Strongly suggest taking the gun to the line flagged and just putting the flag in a pocket to be reinstalled at the end of the stage. If you have a flag, you can keep it vertical and walk around w/ the RO. Best as I can tell, this policy doesn't violate any rules, in fact may give some lee-way to pcc-5.2.1.6.
interestingly enough, 5.2.1.3 says you can carry the gun shouldered or slung, but 5.2.1.2 and 5.2.1.4 specify a flag is required when transporting from vehicles or state to stage, or when in a cart. another oops on uspsa's part. 5.2.1.3 should have also req'd a flag.
Lots of folks are worried about course designs changing to accommodate PCC. Don't worry about it at Ft Wayne, our courses won't be any different in flavor. The only thing I suggested to our designers/builders is to consider a bit of extra room to move the gun around walls. I've seen issues over the years with just pistols where the area is very tight against a wall and the competitor's gun hits the end of the wall as they transition from one side to the other; that type of problem will be compounded w/ a long gun. Not any big change, just a minor safety consideration.
-rvb
I tried one time using the staging area concept by going to the line bolt-open. I don't like this option and wish, like others above mentioned, USPSA had required the flag at all times. At FW, I'm going to say after the "range is clear" you HAVE to go directly from the shooting area to your case in the staging area if you do this option... no walking around w/ the RO to look at hits; that's the same as walking around with a gun out of its holster, IMO. Strongly suggest taking the gun to the line flagged and just putting the flag in a pocket to be reinstalled at the end of the stage. If you have a flag, you can keep it vertical and walk around w/ the RO. Best as I can tell, this policy doesn't violate any rules, in fact may give some lee-way to pcc-5.2.1.6.
interestingly enough, 5.2.1.3 says you can carry the gun shouldered or slung, but 5.2.1.2 and 5.2.1.4 specify a flag is required when transporting from vehicles or state to stage, or when in a cart. another oops on uspsa's part. 5.2.1.3 should have also req'd a flag.
Lots of folks are worried about course designs changing to accommodate PCC. Don't worry about it at Ft Wayne, our courses won't be any different in flavor. The only thing I suggested to our designers/builders is to consider a bit of extra room to move the gun around walls. I've seen issues over the years with just pistols where the area is very tight against a wall and the competitor's gun hits the end of the wall as they transition from one side to the other; that type of problem will be compounded w/ a long gun. Not any big change, just a minor safety consideration.
-rvb
jakemartens
Master
Can you email Troy and Mike will to your observations
done. cc'd you
Some observations on PCC....
We had 6 in the division this weekend. 19% of the entries. That beat open, SS, Rev (none) and CO (none), oh and L10 (none) if you consider that a legit division. That participation % may be skewed since we are one of the only clubs in the area offering the division.
We had one DQ in the division. I didn't see it, but discussed with the RO. It was a horseshoe-shaped course that required backing up (even if you cut across the front) and the shooter turned too far. It was an oops from a newer shooter, not a result of the division or using a long gun on a tight course.
ROs are still struggling with range commands. Partly because I think HQ screwed them up to some degree (email sent to NROI), and partly because it's new.
Staging areas can be simple. I put 4 barrels down in bays w/o safe tables, two on each side with about 8 feet between them. By next spring I hope to add table tops, but for now it seemed to work ok as a place for folks to bag/unbag.
PCC is going to be a lot like open, in that equipment/ammo reliability will play a large roll. My dot batteries failed on my first stage. I knew they were old and tired but thought Id get through the match (didn't even get one shot off). Would have won the division if I'd have shot even a 20% vs a 3% on that stage. Another shooter was having trouble with the trigger resetting. PCCs can be finicky.
PCC results look to be tight. The entire field was w/in 12% of each other. 1st being a production M and last being a production B (who had trigger reset problems). Not a lot of reloading required, shots are close for a carbine, so fewer opportunities for skill to separate shooters.
I didn't stay for the whole match (had to leave early for a funeral) so didn't get to watch a lot of shooters, but I didn't see any issues where folks were swept, or where flags became an issue, etc. Never hears any complaints, and most pistol shooters seemed to enjoy watching the new novelty.
Top shooters are still top shooters. Production GM won in the combined results.
PCC was a lot of fun. I can see shooting it several times per year myself.
Sky is still up in the air, it has not fallen.
-rvb
We had 6 in the division this weekend. 19% of the entries. That beat open, SS, Rev (none) and CO (none), oh and L10 (none) if you consider that a legit division. That participation % may be skewed since we are one of the only clubs in the area offering the division.
We had one DQ in the division. I didn't see it, but discussed with the RO. It was a horseshoe-shaped course that required backing up (even if you cut across the front) and the shooter turned too far. It was an oops from a newer shooter, not a result of the division or using a long gun on a tight course.
ROs are still struggling with range commands. Partly because I think HQ screwed them up to some degree (email sent to NROI), and partly because it's new.
Staging areas can be simple. I put 4 barrels down in bays w/o safe tables, two on each side with about 8 feet between them. By next spring I hope to add table tops, but for now it seemed to work ok as a place for folks to bag/unbag.
PCC is going to be a lot like open, in that equipment/ammo reliability will play a large roll. My dot batteries failed on my first stage. I knew they were old and tired but thought Id get through the match (didn't even get one shot off). Would have won the division if I'd have shot even a 20% vs a 3% on that stage. Another shooter was having trouble with the trigger resetting. PCCs can be finicky.
PCC results look to be tight. The entire field was w/in 12% of each other. 1st being a production M and last being a production B (who had trigger reset problems). Not a lot of reloading required, shots are close for a carbine, so fewer opportunities for skill to separate shooters.
I didn't stay for the whole match (had to leave early for a funeral) so didn't get to watch a lot of shooters, but I didn't see any issues where folks were swept, or where flags became an issue, etc. Never hears any complaints, and most pistol shooters seemed to enjoy watching the new novelty.
Top shooters are still top shooters. Production GM won in the combined results.
PCC was a lot of fun. I can see shooting it several times per year myself.
Sky is still up in the air, it has not fallen.
-rvb
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We had our first match with PCC as a division on Sunday. We had one in that division, although we didn't overtly advertise the recognition of the division. We are still trying to sort out all of the details around having it as a regular division at our matches, so we are taking it slow. Especially being a brand new match director and still working out all those kinks. Stage design is a tall task, regardless of who's shooting or what type of gun is being used.
We've decided that at our match the shooters will remain bagged the whole time. The shooter comes to the line with the gun bagged and makes ready and runs the course of fire. Someone then returns the bag to the shooter for the unload and show clear. The shooter clears the gun and it is bagged for transport to the next stage.
The shooter we had on Sunday is one of our regular production shooters and decided to run it this month because he thought it'd be fun to give it a try. I talked to him after the match and he said it was indeed a lot of fun and didn't have any real issues. We had one stage that had a tight leaning shot, even for a pistol. He got around it in his stage plan by just safely switching hands and taking the shots with his weak hand. I didn't intentionally design in shots to screw PCC, so its good to see (hear) that my crappy design can easily be overcome with appropriate stage planning.
I wasn't on his squad but I didn't hear of any issues major issues from the RO or any his other squad members.
The big takeaways for me:
- IMO keeping the guns bagged at all times is the best way to handle it at our matches.
- Definitely need to provide a table/barrel at the start position.
- Still need to sort out start positions. We've made steel-challenge-like low-ready marks to give PCC shooters a common aiming point for each stage, but I don't know if this is the best way to handle it.
- I need to be mindful of any potential "PCC traps" in my stage design. I'm not saying I need to spend a significant amount of time designing for this division. I just need to remain aware of it and not do anything stupid and force people into any unsafe actions.
The feedback overall has been positive and I imagine that we'll start to see a few more PCC shooters over the coming months.
We've decided that at our match the shooters will remain bagged the whole time. The shooter comes to the line with the gun bagged and makes ready and runs the course of fire. Someone then returns the bag to the shooter for the unload and show clear. The shooter clears the gun and it is bagged for transport to the next stage.
The shooter we had on Sunday is one of our regular production shooters and decided to run it this month because he thought it'd be fun to give it a try. I talked to him after the match and he said it was indeed a lot of fun and didn't have any real issues. We had one stage that had a tight leaning shot, even for a pistol. He got around it in his stage plan by just safely switching hands and taking the shots with his weak hand. I didn't intentionally design in shots to screw PCC, so its good to see (hear) that my crappy design can easily be overcome with appropriate stage planning.
I wasn't on his squad but I didn't hear of any issues major issues from the RO or any his other squad members.
The big takeaways for me:
- IMO keeping the guns bagged at all times is the best way to handle it at our matches.
- Definitely need to provide a table/barrel at the start position.
- Still need to sort out start positions. We've made steel-challenge-like low-ready marks to give PCC shooters a common aiming point for each stage, but I don't know if this is the best way to handle it.
- I need to be mindful of any potential "PCC traps" in my stage design. I'm not saying I need to spend a significant amount of time designing for this division. I just need to remain aware of it and not do anything stupid and force people into any unsafe actions.
The feedback overall has been positive and I imagine that we'll start to see a few more PCC shooters over the coming months.
Pro-tip #1, when you shoot a no-shoot in the head with a PCC, it's due to the offset, not jerking the trigger. The subsequent shot will result in a second no-shoot. Pro-tip #2, fixed time is Virginia count. It's easy to forget, even after you look it up and confirm it is Virginia count before you shoot.
Last shot was worth -17. Charlie, no-shoot, extra shot. Luckily the other no shoot was well into the head or it could have been an extra hit a well.
[video=youtube_share;VaQ4oAUvNqI]http://youtu.be/VaQ4oAUvNqI[/video]
Still don't have the offset burned in, 4 no-shoots for the day. Also I'm extremely lazy in the walk-through since there isn't any reloads. Managed to have two FTEs on the first stage. I added a +6 pad to my 32rd mag so no fear of unplanned reloads. Still managed to have the bolt locked back after this stage...
[video=youtube_share;UXEoMlZeBnQ]http://youtu.be/UXEoMlZeBnQ[/video]
My brother in law shot USPSA once or twice before and never cared for it. Shot PCC one match and is ordering a gun and excited about going back to Ft Wayne again next month.
SBRs do look easier to maneuver around walls and ports. RVB can shred his AR as well as he does Glocks.
Last shot was worth -17. Charlie, no-shoot, extra shot. Luckily the other no shoot was well into the head or it could have been an extra hit a well.
[video=youtube_share;VaQ4oAUvNqI]http://youtu.be/VaQ4oAUvNqI[/video]
Still don't have the offset burned in, 4 no-shoots for the day. Also I'm extremely lazy in the walk-through since there isn't any reloads. Managed to have two FTEs on the first stage. I added a +6 pad to my 32rd mag so no fear of unplanned reloads. Still managed to have the bolt locked back after this stage...
[video=youtube_share;UXEoMlZeBnQ]http://youtu.be/UXEoMlZeBnQ[/video]
My brother in law shot USPSA once or twice before and never cared for it. Shot PCC one match and is ordering a gun and excited about going back to Ft Wayne again next month.
SBRs do look easier to maneuver around walls and ports. RVB can shred his AR as well as he does Glocks.
personqlly, don't like bags on the line... Requires help to move the bag to the shooter, or time to move the shooter to the bag. Flagging is fast and makes the gun safe. Other methods are legal by the rules... I'm curious what is your recourse if someone is using a cart or carries the gun vertical/flagged from the safe area, would you DQ them? All are legal methods.
I don't think that's really necessary. Nothing in the rules about it is there? The "best practices" doc defines default start positions. Port arms or low ready in place of whatever the pistols are doing. Only thing is if it's "hands on walls" or similar you should give a mark to put muzzles on.
what are you using for a zero? I use a real close zero, similar to my open gun. With a 7yd zero, everything from 3yd to 12ish is w/in +/- 1" so I don't even think about offset. Anything farther I just 6-o'clock hold. Secondary zero is about 75 yds w my 147s. Wait. I shouldn't be sharing tricks with YOU. Haha.
Colt pattern mags? Link please!
That's awesome!
I think SBRs do have some advantage. However mine is too short... Burned my hand a bit from the muzzle flash, and sweeping myself is a concern. I've been shopping for about an 11.5," I think that'll be about right.
-rvb
We didn't see any noticeable difference in length of time per shooter with having it bagged. It flowed well and didn't cause any disruption. I know the rules say flagged and cart are ok we've just chosen to go with bagging for now. If a shooter shows up with only a flagged PCC we're not going to send them home but personal preference is to keep them bagged.
We had a port start with a hands on marks on wall, a seated start and hands on marks on wall start so the most efficient and simplest thing to do at set up was to put out low ready start markers. Next month I'll probably try to go with adding muzzle marks for hands on wall starts. The one thing I like about having low ready markers is it gives all PCC shooters the same start position.
Still learning on the job so all this is very much a work in progress.
IMO Matt the stages at last Sundays match were great and a perfect balance of hoser and long shots and tight hardcover and no shoots. Even a little bit of a memory stage. Thanks for stepping up as match director and it looks like the shooters are in good hands with the stage designs that have been happening at Riley.
Most of the time there's not much advantage. There is some advantage through ports or around corners... any place you might have to swing the gun close to a wall/prop. You can be almost as fast with 16" of barrel, it's just the movements have to be exaggerated, more times you have to take the gun off/over the shoulder, etc. Plus an SBR can be a couple pounds lighter... Good for swinging, bad for recoil (with 223 and a good comp it doesn't really matter, does seem to make a difference w/ pistol cals, the comps just aren't as efficient. plus mine is currently too short for a comp.)
-rvb
ok, very good. It's fine to state a preference. I just wanted to make sure you weren't making "local rules."
Take a look at the "Best Practices" doc. It has a whole section on start positions. I thought about doing markers like on steel, but thought Id see how bad the start positions got gamed before I went to the extra hassle. I wonder if they'll add a diagram for the start positions like they do for Apx E3.
Still learning on the job so all this is very much a work in progress.[/QUOTE]
The whole division is a work in progress. We'll all learn from each other and find out what works and what doesn't...
-rvb
I sent a note to Taran suggesting colt pattern 9mm mag extensions. Here was his response...
We started getting into the PCC division with the base pads for the SIG MPX, however we have yet to star production on another base pad for those wanting to shoot PCC. However, I'll definitely make a note about the Colt mags for consideration!
maybe if more folks send emails to request them.......
-rvb
We started getting into the PCC division with the base pads for the SIG MPX, however we have yet to star production on another base pad for those wanting to shoot PCC. However, I'll definitely make a note about the Colt mags for consideration!
maybe if more folks send emails to request them.......
-rvb
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