Pistol Caliber Carbine - SC & USPSA

[kevinsr98]

From the April BoD meeting minutes:



I discussed this at the last meeting with the Fort Wayne Rifle and Revolver club, and it was agreed that PCC CAN be included in our matches. So once it becomes a division, provisional or otherwise, Fort Wayne will include it.

-rvb

All the ranges in Indiana had just about successfully boycotted PCC from USPSA matches, now you've gone and done it!

(never been to your range just because of the distance from me, now it will be worth the trip)

 

[midget]

i don't envision our stage designs changing... However, we have some big bays and we are known for taking advantage of them In our pistol matches.

-rvb

i remember this one time, some a hole put a set of mini poppers and plates at 35 yards....

 

[E7Wrangler]

Okay I am new here and pretty inexperienced at USPSA but I would love to shoot a PCC division. I don't even have one yet but if this were regularly available I would get one pdq. Would really love to do it with .22 but I realize they won't put the steel down sadly as I think it would be a great opening to get new shooters going. Lots more novice shooters ready to give things a try with a .22 rifle than with a center fire pistol. Much much lower monetary investment and less intimidating. Just my two cents worth.

 

[rvb]

.22 pistol and rifle are already legal in steel challenge. I doubt you'll ever see them in regular USPSA as power is one of the 3 elements of the sport.

-rvb

 

[VERT]

Okay I am new here and pretty inexperienced at USPSA but I would love to shoot a PCC division. I don't even have one yet but if this were regularly available I would get one pdq. Would really love to do it with .22 but I realize they won't put the steel down sadly as I think it would be a great opening to get new shooters going. Lots more novice shooters ready to give things a try with a .22 rifle than with a center fire pistol. Much much lower monetary investment and less intimidating. Just my two cents worth.

No rimfire in USPSA. So pistol caliber carbine would mean 9mm for most competitors. You can however shot steel challenge with rimfire.

 

[E7Wrangler]

No rimfire in USPSA. So pistol caliber carbine would mean 9mm for most competitors. You can however shot steel challenge with rimfire.

Any steel matches being shot tomorrow, Sat, April 23. Looking for a SC or USPSA shoot to attend.

 

[rvb]

Any steel matches being shot tomorrow, Sat, April 23. Looking for a SC or USPSA shoot to attend.

you can find when a club near you is shooting by looking here:
Locate USPSA Clubs - USPSA - United States Practical Shooting Association and selecting IN

-rvb

 

[romack991]

Well PCC is a provisional division in USPSA starting July 1st but still at the discretion of the club/match director.

USPSA Announcements - United States Practical Shooting Association

https://uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2016/PCC Appendix D8.pdf

https://uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2016/PCC_Rules_Addendum.pdf

 

[rvb]

OK, some rules discussion...

Seems they screwed up the range commands..
8.3.7.1, PCC: “Bolt closed, hammer down, flag”
Is there no "If Clear?" That always put the ownership of failure to clear the firearm on the competitor. [eta: oops on them, "best practices" has the "if clear," but rest of command is screwed up]

Chamber Flags required if cased?
I seem to recall the older/draft versions said didn't need a chamber flag if cased? PCC 5.2.1.2 seems to remove any exception for needing chamber flags? I'm ok with that, and it may even be better, just want to make sure I'm reading it right. Only time I see no flag required is when moving from a "staging area" to a COF (must be bolt open).

Why did they make it so "staging areas" can't also be Safe Areas? Safe Areas seem like natural "staging areas." Rules says no handgun handling...

8.2.2 defines a default start position for handguns. Whey did they not define one for PCC? The "best practices" says port arms OR low ready. You shouldn't have a "default" w/ an "OR", imo. This seems to be something COF designers will have to remember to incl in the WSB.

From the "best practices" doc... "At ranges where muzzle direction is specified by the range (not the USPSA club) then that restriction must be followed."
WTF? Every other USPSA rule, except some mag capacity nonsense, there are no "local exceptions."

That's just what I noticed after a 1st read, any one else have other issues?

-rvb

 

[romack991]

I'm guessing the "staging" areas will be typically the side berm behind the back of the shooting area. I think they just need a place for PCC competitors to pick up their PCC from the cart/bag without sweeping anyone. Some bays are not near a safe area. If this is the case, I think they should specify no sight pictures at the staging areas & finger must remain outside the trigger guard. It should only be for transitioning the PCC from a stored position to a vertical position in which you can carry the PCC to the start position. If someone needs an extra sight picture or to look at their gun, they should have to go to a safe area just like handgun.

 

[rvb]

I'm guessing the "staging" areas will be typically the side berm behind the back of the shooting area. I think they just need a place for PCC competitors to pick up their PCC from the cart/bag without sweeping anyone. Some bays are not near a safe area. If this is the case, I think they should specify no sight pictures at the staging areas & finger must remain outside the trigger guard. It should only be for transitioning the PCC from a stored position to a vertical position in which you can carry the PCC to the start position. If someone needs an extra sight picture or to look at their gun, they should have to go to a safe area just like handgun.

I agree with that... that it shouldn't be used for dryfire, work on guns, etc. they didn't define that very well. sight picture is debatable... lots of folks will want to turn dots on/off here... I don't have a strong opinion on sight picture, but it'd be nice if the rule was clear...

Another related "gotcha" is 8.3.7.1 talks about casing the gun and taking it off the stage in the case. If the case is left near the start position, and the COF has the shooter advancing downrange, then they could stand to DQ for 180 when carrying vertically back to the start to case the gun, since the COF isn't over until "Range is Clear." (and IMO "Range is Clear" shouldn't be given if you know the gun is going back horizontal to be cased). I don't think "reasonably vertical" applies during a COF.

-rvb

 

[Coach]

The thing to do would have been to require chamber flags. Leave the range commands the same. Call the range clear when it is flagged and move on.

 

[Tanfodude]

How can you flag if the bolt is closed first? Wouldn't the appropriate command be: "if clear, flag, bolt closed, hammer down."?

OK, some rules discussion...

Seems they screwed up the range commands..
8.3.7.1, PCC: “Bolt closed, hammer down, flag”
Is there no "If Clear?" That always put the ownership of failure to clear the firearm on the competitor. [eta: oops on them, "best practices" has the "if clear," but rest of command is screwed up]

Chamber Flags required if cased?
I seem to recall the older/draft versions said didn't need a chamber flag if cased? PCC 5.2.1.2 seems to remove any exception for needing chamber flags? I'm ok with that, and it may even be better, just want to make sure I'm reading it right. Only time I see no flag required is when moving from a "staging area" to a COF (must be bolt open).

Why did they make it so "staging areas" can't also be Safe Areas? Safe Areas seem like natural "staging areas." Rules says no handgun handling...

8.2.2 defines a default start position for handguns. Whey did they not define one for PCC? The "best practices" says port arms OR low ready. You shouldn't have a "default" w/ an "OR", imo. This seems to be something COF designers will have to remember to incl in the WSB.

From the "best practices" doc... "At ranges where muzzle direction is specified by the range (not the USPSA club) then that restriction must be followed."
WTF? Every other USPSA rule, except some mag capacity nonsense, there are no "local exceptions."

That's just what I noticed after a 1st read, any one else have other issues?

-rvb

 

[rvb]

How can you flag if the bolt is closed first? Wouldn't the appropriate command be: "if clear, flag, bolt closed, hammer down."?

I think the idea is to close the bolt and dryfire the gun like we do with pistols to prove empty, then insert the flag....
you couldn't dryfire the gun with a flag inserted.

-rvb

 

[Tanfodude]

^Gotcha.

 

[romack991]

I'm not a fan of being able to lock the bolt back at the staging area as the rules are suggesting. To me, safety flags should be mandatory and should not be removed unless in the safe area or under RO direction. I know it will add a few seconds for the competitor to take the flag out at make ready but it just seems dumb to me. We don't let people lock the slide back on a pistol and carry a pistol around. To me, the chamber flag is essentially the same as a holstered pistol.

 

[bwframe]

The thing to do would have been to require chamber flags. Leave the range commands the same. Call the range clear when it is flagged and move on.

Why flags over bags? I agree with leaving the range commands the same.

 

[Tanfodude]

^I'm thinking for time saving and to bag, you basically have to place it at the end of your run outside fault lines and retrieving could cause 180s/sweepings. Flagging seems more efficient.

 

[Coach]

Why flags over bags? I agree with leaving the range commands the same.

Largely for the reasons romack said above. Flags are easy to stick in the back pocket and flag the gun. That is good enough until the shooter can bag the gun while scoring is being started. The one match at Parabellum demonstrated that flagging and calling the range clear saves drastic time and is safe.

 

[Coach]

^I'm thinking for time saving and to bag, you basically have to place it at the end of your run outside fault lines and retrieving could cause 180s/sweepings. Flagging seems more efficient.

Flag then call clear and the shooter can bag on their own. They should be mindful of the muzzle, and the bag should be at the start position.