16 Open Carriers vs Several Police Officers!

[Lodogg2221]

This doesn't make much sense ... can you perhaps ... try again? Maybe I'm not understanding...

Well, I couldnt think of much of a real scenario to be honest...just trying to think that if there WAS a good reason for them to ask you for your LTCH, how do they know its really you on the pink paper, and that you didnt take it from your Dad/Brother/Friend, etc?
I guess Im just thinking worst case, but there are a LOT of fake ID out there too, so maybe Im putting the cart WAY before the horse....

Thanks for the other info though.

 

[Sonick]

I know this will spark unwanted flames from certain people, but if you are too stubborn or proud to show an officer ID, or openly admit you're carrying when pulled over, you SHOULD NOT have a LTCH. I understand it is a right, and I carry everyday, but if an officer stops me the first thing I do is tell him I am carrying and I have a LTCH, and if he asks for ID (which he wouldn't because my picture is on mine) I would gladly show him. People that are too proud or stubborn to provide whatever they need to make the public or LEO's more comfortable with your decision to carry is what makes us look bad in the public's eyes and gives these stupid politicians more reasons to blast about us.

Just my two pennies.

 

[Roadie]

I know this will spark unwanted flames from certain people, but if you are too stubborn or proud to show an officer ID, or openly admit you're carrying when pulled over, you SHOULD NOT have a LTCH. I understand it is a right, and I carry everyday, but if an officer stops me the first thing I do is tell him I am carrying and I have a LTCH, and if he asks for ID (which he wouldn't because my picture is on mine) I would gladly show him. People that are too proud or stubborn to provide whatever they need to make the public or LEO's more comfortable with your decision to carry is what makes us look bad in the public's eyes and gives these stupid politicians more reasons to blast about us.

Just my two pennies.

"unwanted flames"? Well, if you didn't want responses, you shouldnt have posted

So how far do you take that? When you get pulled over, and the Officer says "You don't mind if I search your car, you have nothing to hide, right?".. Do you let him?

..and since when in this country is it "stubborn" to stand up for one's Rights?

 

[Hohn]

There was 6 minutes I'll never get back....

 

[TheReaper]

There was 6 minutes I'll never get back....

LOL, I felt the same way!

 

[Signal23]

I don't much care for the title of the video either. I don't, however, agree that the customers "pushed" back. Perhaps I missed something?

The push back is that EVERYBODY knew why the cops where there (right), and nobody met them at the door, or went outside, to "just tell their side" of the stroy, instead, everybody sat (acting defiant) (recording, mumbling) and hey, the respectful thing would be have one in your group, go willingly and say, "we are just out for a meal, exing our 2nd rights, sorry for the hassle". DONE easy peasy.

But everyone sat, waiting for a faux confrontation including recording it, THAT's what I mean by "push back". They were likely on your side (as you found out) but they had to have gotten a call to be there, so one of you could and I say should have made it easier. you can disagree, that's fine, I am just saying, someone should have manned up and spoke for the group out of respect for the cops and your group.

 

[Sonick]

"unwanted flames"? Well, if you didn't want responses, you shouldnt have posted

So how far do you take that? When you get pulled over, and the Officer says "You don't mind if I search your car, you have nothing to hide, right?".. Do you let him?

..and since when in this country is it "stubborn" to stand up for one's Rights?

Oh I don't mind responses as long as they are educated :-) I am not saying a person should consent to an unjustified search but I read all the time people saying they won't tell an officer they are carrying and what not which I think is stubborn and ignorant. I don't see the problem with telling an officer right away that you are carrying. You would want the same courtesy if you were an LEO and if I was a cop and someone didn't tell me right away they would definitely be getting a ticket for whatever I originally pulled them over for. Telling the cop right away that you have an LTCH and are carrying may just save you from the speeding ticket you were pulled over for. Courtesy goes a long way.

 

[Gino66]

Like most issues which arise when dealing with other people, communication is key. I don't think I would have produced an ID card, especially when I have done nothing wrong.....but I might tell them my name, to ease their fears I am NOT a wanted murderous felon or something. Yes, the LEO could have handled that better....a wagon for the mass arrest really? No that wont provoke more tension......JBT tactic

 

[Titanium_Frost]

The push back is that EVERYBODY knew why the cops where there (right), and nobody met them at the door, or went outside, to "just tell their side" of the stroy, instead, everybody sat (acting defiant) (recording, mumbling) and hey, the respectful thing would be have one in your group, go willingly and say, "we are just out for a meal, exing our 2nd rights, sorry for the hassle". DONE easy peasy.

But everyone sat, waiting for a faux confrontation including recording it, THAT's what I mean by "push back". They were likely on your side (as you found out) but they had to have gotten a call to be there, so one of you could and I say should have made it easier. you can disagree, that's fine, I am just saying, someone should have manned up and spoke for the group out of respect for the cops and your group.

Defiant? These people were just trying to enjoy their meal in peace, the cops were the ones being stubborn and lacked "common sense."

Anyone with one good eye and half a useable brain can figure out that a group of people minding their own business with their family is not a threat and they were under no suspicion of breaking any laws.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I know this will spark unwanted flames from certain people, but if you are too stubborn or proud to show an officer ID, or openly admit you're carrying when pulled over, you SHOULD NOT have a LTCH. I understand it is a right, and I carry everyday, but if an officer stops me the first thing I do is tell him I am carrying and I have a LTCH, and if he asks for ID (which he wouldn't because my picture is on mine) I would gladly show him. People that are too proud or stubborn to provide whatever they need to make the public or LEO's more comfortable with your decision to carry is what makes us look bad in the public's eyes and gives these stupid politicians more reasons to blast about us.

Just my two pennies.

People like you are 10x more damaging and dangerous to our collective rights as Americans the the Fiensteins and McCarthys and Bidens and Obamas out there.

Use your sense and realize that not everyone looks at situations the same way you do. Perhaps some of those people who now refuse to tell police they are carrying were once unsafely disarmed for no reason and their loaded firearm pointed at their family while the untrained and ignorant cop tried to unload a weapon unfamiliar to him.

When you see your own firearm pointed at your wife and infant son as you stand helpless to do anything besides yell at the dumb bastard to not point a gun at your innocent family you may start to understand that your ways are not the best ways for everyone.

Here's buy a clue.

 

[Signal23]

Defiant? These people were just trying to enjoy their meal in peace, the cops were the ones being stubborn and lacked "common sense."

Anyone with one good eye and half a useable brain can figure out that a group of people minding their own business with their family is not a threat and they were under no suspicion of breaking any laws.

yes defiant, the cops made more than one attempt to communicate.

Bottom line is, a bunch of open carry guys wanted attention and got it.

Let me be clear, I AM FOR open carry, I AM FOR peaceful assembly (or a good meal)

But it was obvious this was provacative (agree??) if not, when is the last time you saw 20 open carriers show up at someplace you already were???
None, so that it.........you guys went for making a point and surprised people that didn't expect it (someone called) so you got the attension you were looking for.......as well as the police, because on the phone it was "there are 20 guys here with guns"........

So is it a good idea to carry in public sure, is there a chance you will surprise or strike fear in the public SURE, is it possible you will get the cops called on you even for being law abiding.......SURE

Can it be defused an EASY WAY or A HARD WAY.......sure.

Why not take the high road, move easy, and prove the same point???

 

[Titanium_Frost]

yes defiant, the cops made more than one attempt to communicate.

Bottom line is, a bunch of open carry guys wanted attention and got it.

Let me be clear, I AM FOR open carry, I AM FOR peaceful assembly (or a good meal)

But it was obvious this was provacative (agree??) if not, when is the last time you saw 20 open carriers show up at someplace you already were???
None, so that it.........you guys went for making a point and surprised people that didn't expect it (someone called) so you got the attension you were looking for.......as well as the police, because on the phone it was "there are 20 guys here with guns"........

So is it a good idea to carry in public sure, is there a chance you will surprise or strike fear in the public SURE, is it possible you will get the cops called on you even for being law abiding.......SURE

Can it be defused an EASY WAY or A HARD WAY.......sure.

Why not take the high road, move easy, and prove the same point???

I've never had a problem in a group and anytime I have been out like that it was to spend times with friends (INGO get togethers or after a competition) so your assumption that they were TRYING to get attention is flawed as there are much better ways than that if you want police attention.

Furthermore they would have brought better equipment to record the interaction. Who goes to a noisy restaurant to film a conversation if you thing you are going to PWN some ignorant cops?

I have never taken the "easy" road out so it does not appeal to me, I take the path I choose because I am a freewill agent created in the image of my maker and granted inalienable rights recognized by my Republic.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

yes defiant, the cops made more than one attempt to communicate.

Refusal to submit to a voluntary interaction is not defiance, it is merely choosing your own path and not blindly obeying someone else.

 

[Signal23]

Refusal to submit to a voluntary interaction is not defiance, it is merely choosing your own path and not blindly obeying someone else.

I am as free as you are, and I would have spoke to the police, not just look at my cottage cheese till he went away.

If he has ill in mind, let it be with me I am fine with being the tip of the spear.

If he wants to ask what's up or what brought us there, I would have no problem answering after all, I would have nothing to hide.

Do what you will, better get back to your cottage cheese, it looks important.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I gotta back TF's view on this one. Though I understangd what S23 is trying to say, it shouldn't fall an a citizen to "prove" that their actions are legal, if indeed they are.

 

[TheReaper]

yes defiant, the cops made more than one attempt to communicate.

Bottom line is, a bunch of open carry guys wanted attention and got it.

Let me be clear, I AM FOR open carry, I AM FOR peaceful assembly (or a good meal)

But it was obvious this was provacative (agree??) if not, when is the last time you saw 20 open carriers show up at someplace you already were???
None, so that it.........you guys went for making a point and surprised people that didn't expect it (someone called) so you got the attension you were looking for.......as well as the police, because on the phone it was "there are 20 guys here with guns"........

So is it a good idea to carry in public sure, is there a chance you will surprise or strike fear in the public SURE, is it possible you will get the cops called on you even for being law abiding.......SURE

Can it be defused an EASY WAY or A HARD WAY.......sure.

Why not take the high road, move easy, and prove the same point???

You are 100% correct on this. The "protesters" were defiant and all they had to do is spend about 1 minute speaking with the officers and it would have been all over. I don't think any of the "protesters" were mental giants, that's for sure...they looked/acted about as good as the Wall Street protesters.

 

[Lodogg2221]

People like you are 10x more damaging and dangerous to our collective rights as Americans the the Fiensteins and McCarthys and Bidens and Obamas out there.

Use your sense and realize that not everyone looks at situations the same way you do. Perhaps some of those people who now refuse to tell police they are carrying were once unsafely disarmed for no reason and their loaded firearm pointed at their family while the untrained and ignorant cop tried to unload a weapon unfamiliar to him.

When you see your own firearm pointed at your wife and infant son as you stand helpless to do anything besides yell at the dumb bastard to not point a gun at your innocent family you may start to understand that your ways are not the best ways for everyone.

Here's buy a clue.

You cant have it both ways, either we can all have our differing opinions, or we can just FORCE others to think as we do.
Looks like you are fine defending everyones opinion as long as it matches yours in this case.

I can see both sides of this, but really, there has to be a better argument.

Are we trying to get others to understand us or just to dislike us for standing up for whats right, no matter the cost to us or our "cause"?

How hard is it to show the LTCH and the ID and explain in the process that you are not required by law to do so? The hard way isnt always the best, no matter what the law says. Unless of course, you are fine with a negative view of people OCing....in which case, who is more dangerous to our rights than those who continually put them in a negative perspective for the general public?

The discussion that isnt happening anywhere is how to get the general non-gun carrying public to understand and accept it, instead of forcing our rights on everyone because the law says we can. Everyone says they should, but no-one is interested in doing anything but what they already do.

Someone mentioned Rosa Parks. The law said she COULDNT ride in the front of the bus....so that isnt a valid argument in this case. To be in her position, one would have to OC where it was against the law....


Come on guys, we are all for the same thing, we just need to find a way to collectively get more of the general public on our side, and fighting amongst ourselves because our opinions are different isnt the way to do that....

 

[Roadie]

Oh I don't mind responses as long as they are educated :-) I am not saying a person should consent to an unjustified search but I read all the time people saying they won't tell an officer they are carrying and what not which I think is stubborn and ignorant. I don't see the problem with telling an officer right away that you are carrying. You would want the same courtesy if you were an LEO and if I was a cop and someone didn't tell me right away they would definitely be getting a ticket for whatever I originally pulled them over for. Telling the cop right away that you have an LTCH and are carrying may just save you from the speeding ticket you were pulled over for. Courtesy goes a long way.

Well, if *I* were a LEO, I would know that the vast majority of licensed Gun Owners are law abiding. I would also know that in Indiana, one does not have a legal "duty to inform". I would also operate under the wise wisdom of "the safest gun is the one not being touched" and leave the damn thing where it is.. BUT

..volunteering you are carrying may get you taken out of your car, disarmed "for Officer Safety", while said Officer fumbles around with an unfamiliar weapon pointing it at you and bystanders, then the serial number run to "make sure it isn't stolen".

You can see quite a few examples of this on INGO if you care to look...

 

[Roadie]

You cant have it both ways, either we can all have our differing opinions, or we can just FORCE others to think as we do.
Looks like you are fine defending everyones opinion as long as it matches yours in this case.

I can see both sides of this, but really, there has to be a better argument.

Are we trying to get others to understand us or just to dislike us for standing up for whats right, no matter the cost to us or our "cause"?

How hard is it to show the LTCH and the ID and explain in the process that you are not required by law to do so? The hard way isnt always the best, no matter what the law says. Unless of course, you are fine with a negative view of people OCing....in which case, who is more dangerous to our rights than those who continually put them in a negative perspective for the general public?

The discussion that isnt happening anywhere is how to get the general non-gun carrying public to understand and accept it, instead of forcing our rights on everyone because the law says we can. Everyone says they should, but no-one is interested in doing anything but what they already do.

Someone mentioned Rosa Parks. The law said she COULDNT ride in the front of the bus....so that isnt a valid argument in this case. To be in her position, one would have to OC where it was against the law....


Come on guys, we are all for the same thing, we just need to find a way to collectively get more of the general public on our side, and fighting amongst ourselves because our opinions are different isnt the way to do that....

No, actually, Rosa Parks was sitting in the "Colored Section" of the bus, but was told to get up to give her seat to a white person by the bus driver... she wasn't breaking any law, therefore the comparison is valid..

 

[Lodogg2221]

No, actually, Rosa Parks was sitting in the "Colored Section" of the bus, but was told to get up to give her seat to a white person by the bus driver... she wasn't breaking any law, therefore the comparison is valid..

My way of thinking is, People OC all the time without incident. Comparing this to Parks would be saying that every time someone OCs, they are hassled for it.
That simply isnt the case, as stated by MANY in this thread.
Again, everyone sees things differently, and as is common with our own ideas, I mentioned that when I shouldnt have....apparently, as Doc Holiday said in Tombstone, My hypocrisy knows no bounds....