17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[Fargo]

I'm going to take this opportunity to object on relevancy grounds.

What matters is that TM is acting the thug at the moment he was shot.

I believe the evidence does show that. It shouldn't survive a TR50 (or whatever Florida's equivalent is) but I understand the politics of it.

You believe the evidence does show that or you believe there is insufficient evidence to disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt? I've never known a defense attorney to WANT to shift the burden to the defendant to show anything.

Just poking at you, I agree that based upon what I know of it, I don't see how it survives close of state's evidence, especially with Florida's explicit Self-defense basis to direct the verdict upon.

Best,


Joe

 

[Roadie]

Self defense against an attack not involving a weapon pretty much always includes severity of injuries in the analysis. It isn't the only factor, but it pretty much always plays in.

IME, it primarily comes up in making the determination of whether ordinary force or deadly force is justified. Simple battery does not normally justify deadly force and battery with injury normally does not as well. However, if battery with serious bodily injury is occurring or it is reasonable to believe it is about to occur, you then normally hit the deadly force threshold. This is codified in IC 35-41-3-2(c).

That is not to say that you have to wait for SBI to act, but evidence of injuries sustained or not sustained is pretty much always relevant (but not dispositive) to the determination of whether deadly force was reasonable.

If Z is telling the truth, I don't see how he wasn't justified. I disagree with Kut that manslaughter could lie here as the justification defense is a all or nuthin proposition. If it applies, he must be acquitted.

I just don't see how the state can disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt; especially after the trainwreck their witnesses have been to date.

Then again, you never know with a jury, particularly when you have what appears to me to be an unsympathetic defendant. They may hold it against him how the incident unfolded, particularly if he doesn't come off well on the stand.

Best,


Joe

Understood. My fear is that evidence of SBI will end up being necessary to prove self defense was justified. The prosecution is trying to paint the picture that the injuries were not "serious" enough.

Am I wrong to think it possible that if Zimmerman is convicted, this could set the precedence that one must BE seriously injured, not just be THREATENED with serious injury?

 

[teknickle]

"BREAKING NEWS:
The George Zimmerman defense is doing the "happy dance" right now as Angela Corey, Florida’s state attorney and the prosecutor against Zimmerman, has been indicted by a citizens’ grand jury for allegedly falsifying the warrant and complaint that led to Zimmerman being charged with the murder of Trayvon Martin.

The indictment accuses Corey of allegedly withholding photographs of Zimmerman’s head after the incident. Also, Corey allegedly falsely signed an arrest warrant under oath without including the pictures as evidence.

The indictment demonstrates just how easily politics and the unethical government element can weasel into our courtrooms."
-from Tony Stiles

 

[ArcadiaGP]

"BREAKING NEWS:
The George Zimmerman defense is doing the "happy dance" right now as Angela Corey, Florida’s state attorney and the prosecutor against Zimmerman, has been indicted by a citizens’ grand jury for allegedly falsifying the warrant and complaint that led to Zimmerman being charged with the murder of Trayvon Martin.

The indictment accuses Corey of allegedly withholding photographs of Zimmerman’s head after the incident. Also, Corey allegedly falsely signed an arrest warrant under oath without including the pictures as evidence.

The indictment demonstrates just how easily politics and the unethical government element can weasel into our courtrooms."
-from Tony Stiles

links/sources, please.

 

[churchmouse]

links/sources, please.

Yes. This has to be Proven or there will be 500 more pages..........

 

[Kutnupe14]

The media and prosecution are painting "T" as an angelic teen with early pics and deletion of known facts about him. Tweets-FB posts and racial remarks and slurs. Known to be a fighter and he enjoyed/searched it out. They are digging up everything on "Z" and deleting so much of who "T" was.
This is totally motivated by race and it is just wrong.
"T" and "Z" share some heritage.

The same thing could be said about damn near every high school athlete I attended school with (including me). We were just lucky enough that Facebook and Twitter didn't exist.

He was a stupid kid, and IMO not any more stupid that most others.

Remember when that guy followed those 3 kids, in his car, threw a punch, and they beat the crap out of him? What would we be saying about those kids if when the guy who pulled the gun shot and killed all 3 of them (and there was no video)? He'd certainly would have looked the part of the "victim," as he was certainly the worse for wear.... but the video clearly showed him as the aggressor, and he was jailed for his actions.

I defend Martin because It's hard for me to justify his death based on the situation: Zimmerman's injuries, and being that no crime had taken place, and Zimmerman following Martin. Sure Zimmerman's injuries weren't life-threatening, and that doesn't mean he should wait until they were to defend himself with deadly force (that's stupid) But, getting punched in the nose and falling down doesn't raise a fight to a deadly force instance in most cases; does it? If that's the litmus test we're using, then the first time someone gains an upperhand during a fight, then the other party is justified in using deadly force (I don't subscribe to that). Sometime people simply get their butts whipped, and good, and it's not justifiable to shoot them.
I'm betting many members here have been in fights, and I mean real knock down drag out, black eye, busted lip, sore the next day fights. In those instances (for those that have been in them), do you think you would have been justified in shooting the other guy, if it were you with that black eye and busted lip?

 

[cordex]

"BREAKING NEWS:
The George Zimmerman defense is doing the "happy dance" right now as Angela Corey, Florida’s state attorney and the prosecutor against Zimmerman, has been indicted by a citizens’ grand jury for allegedly falsifying the warrant and complaint that led to Zimmerman being charged with the murder of Trayvon Martin.

Meaningless:
Citizens Grand Jury

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Meaningless:
Citizens Grand Jury

Yeah, a non-binding thing by some group in FL. not legit.

 

[public servant]

Meaningless:
Citizens Grand Jury

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'm going to take this opportunity to object on relevancy grounds.

What matters is that TM is acting the thug at the moment he was shot.

I believe the evidence does show that. It shouldn't survive a TR50 (or whatever Florida's equivalent is) but I understand the politics of it.

What evidence? The evidence only indicates that a fight occurred. Started by whom is unknown. So the evidence could equally indicate that Zimmerman was equally a thug, albeit MMA-trained thug.

 

[Bunnykid68]

What evidence? The evidence only indicates that a fight occurred. Started by whom is unknown. So the evidence could equally indicate that Zimmerman was equally a thug, albeit MMA-trained thug.

Zimmerman trained in MMA?

 

[Kutnupe14]

Zimmerman trained in MMA?

Yeah, but apparently he wasn't very good...

Lindzee Folgate, an Altamonte Family Practice physician assistant who treated Zimmerman Feb. 27, 2012, the day after the shooting, was called to testify on his medical records. Reading a medical history taken Aug. 19, 2011, Folgate testified that due to difficulty sleeping, Zimmerman had "started to exercise intensely with MMA."
Another record from Sept. 23, 2011, indicated Zimmerman was in MMA training "three days per week."

George Zimmerman trial: MMA-day in Trayvon Martin shooting case - Orlando Sentinel

 

[churchmouse]

The same thing could be said about damn near every high school athlete I attended school with (including me). We were just lucky enough that Facebook and Twitter didn't exist.

He was a stupid kid, and IMO not any more stupid that most others.

Remember when that guy followed those 3 kids, in his car, threw a punch, and they beat the crap out of him? What would we be saying about those kids if when the guy who pulled the gun shot and killed all 3 of them (and there was no video)? He'd certainly would have looked the part of the "victim," as he was certainly the worse for wear.... but the video clearly showed him as the aggressor, and he was jailed for his actions.

I defend Martin because It's hard for me to justify his death based on the situation: Zimmerman's injuries, and being that no crime had taken place, and Zimmerman following Martin. Sure Zimmerman's injuries weren't life-threatening, and that doesn't mean he should wait until they were to defend himself with deadly force (that's stupid) But, getting punched in the nose and falling down doesn't raise a fight to a deadly force instance in most cases; does it? If that's the litmus test we're using, then the first time someone gains an upperhand during a fight, then the other party is justified in using deadly force (I don't subscribe to that). Sometime people simply get their butts whipped, and good, and it's not justifiable to shoot them.
I'm betting many members here have been in fights, and I mean real knock down drag out, black eye, busted lip, sore the next day fights. In those instances (for those that have been in them), do you think you would have been justified in shooting the other guy, if it were you with that black eye and busted lip?

I can not disagree with most of what you said here^^^^^^

I speak only of this incident and as stated, we all have our opinions based on our experiences over a life time. I can see yours been heavily influenced from rolling a radio car everyday and dealing with that element of the population.

I grew up in a very rough and tumble area. I have lost track of the knock down bone busters I have had in my lifetime. I have seen stars, had a broken nose, my share of black eyes and managed to walk away from most all of these encounters. I can say with a straight face that I never ambushed anyone and most every encounter was FTF. I can also say that no one really wins any of these street/bar brawl style fights. The pain that you carry for the days after are proof of this.

I have drawn my pistol during a couple of fights but it was used as a club when I was being outnumbered. More info here is not needed just know I have been "In it" and know the score.
"Z" was ill equipped to take on the responsibility's of his actions. He was no street fighter and most likely had not ever had his face punched that hard and been on his back in that predicament. Fear for ones life will make you do some irrational things as "Z" did here.
Kut, you asked a very good question and I pose it to you all myself. How many of you have been pinned on your back getting slammed into the concrete MMA style. Really, how many.
When the light starts to fad and everything is blue and pink....what then.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Kut, you asked a very good question and I pose it to you all myself. How many of you have been pinned on your back getting slammed into the concrete MMA style. Really, how many.
When the light starts to fad and everything is blue and pink....what then.

That's a fair question, absolutely. Never. In fact, we are taught to use deadly force if "the light starts to fad and everything is blue and pink." Even if Zimmerman started the fight, I think Martin wouldve taken it too far, enabling Zimmerman to employ deadly force.
My issue, is that I simply don't believe Martin slammed Zimmerman's head against the concrete the "dozen" times as he indicated. I am not a medical professional, but the injuries on the back of his head don't seem to sync up with the extreme violence indicated, by Zimmerman, to be coming from Martin as he bashed his head against the concrete.
I've never believed that. It's a dozen times... not one, not two, not three, not four, not five.... but a dozen. I'd like the think that the injuries would be much more serious if true.

 

[cordex]

Remember when that guy followed those 3 kids, in his car, threw a punch, and they beat the crap out of him? What would we be saying about those kids if when the guy who pulled the gun shot and killed all 3 of them (and there was no video)? He'd certainly would have looked the part of the "victim," as he was certainly the worse for wear.... but the video clearly showed him as the aggressor, and he was jailed for his actions.

I'm not familiar with that specific case, but as you well know sometimes bad guys will get away with their crimes because there isn't enough evidence to convict them. In a hypothetical case like the one you mention, it is entirely possible that the aggressor would get away with the killing absent compelling evidence that demonstrates he initiated violence.

I defend Martin because It's hard for me to justify his death based on the situation: Zimmerman's injuries, and being that no crime had taken place, and Zimmerman following Martin.

I completely understand and respect this position, however we're not trying to justify his death so much as we're trying to determine whether we have any reason to believe Zimmerman initiated violence and whether Zimmerman was reasonably in fear of serious bodily injury or death when he shot Martin. Consider when a police officer shoots an unarmed suspect who looks like he is reaching for a weapon. If the officer acted in a reasonable manner with the information available to him, you would likely not convict him of anything - much less second degree murder - even if the suspect turned out to be completely innocent as well as unarmed.

Sure Zimmerman's injuries weren't life-threatening, and that doesn't mean he should wait until they were to defend himself with deadly force (that's stupid) But, getting punched in the nose and falling down doesn't raise a fight to a deadly force instance in most cases; does it?

Agreed, but that's not taking into account the testimony that has been presented thus far. Namely:
1. Good's testimony that Martin was straddling a supine Zimmerman and appearing to repeatedly strike him.
2. The 911 recording that features what are by every appearance Zimmerman's repeated screams for 41 seconds, ignoring for the moment however long the screaming went on prior to the beginning of the recording. That's a long time to get one punch and bump your head on some concrete.
3. Zimmerman's statement that Martin had verbally threatened his life at the outset of the confrontation and he believed Martin to be attempting to go for his loaded handgun.

Whatever Zimmerman's injuries, the conflict was considerably more extended than "getting punched in the nose and falling down". Just because not all the blows resulted in significant trauma (Zimmerman may have been able to deflect many of them with his hands and arms) doesn't mean he wasn't fighting for his life, does it? If during the 41+ seconds of Zimmerman losing the fight and screaming for help Martin spotted his handgun and attempted to snatch it, I think he could reasonably assume ill-intent on Martin's part.

 

[45calibre]

Do you mean to tell me if someone starts beating the **** out of you you will not fire? serious bodily harm is justified with deadly force. i have never been in that type of fight before and if i ever got beat the way zimmerman did i would do my best to shoot that individual.

 

[jbombelli]

I wonder if Kutnupe would shoot if someone knocked him down and started punching him in the face and smacking his head into the pavement somewhere between once and a dozen times and showed no signs of letting up his attack.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I wonder if Kutnupe would shoot if someone knocked him down and started punching him in the face and smacking his head into the pavement somewhere between once and a dozen times and showed no signs of letting up his attack.

That's already been answered. I suggest you read my and churchmouse's exchange.

 

[TiminMishawaka]

Yeah, but apparently he wasn't very good...
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Actually he was good. He was attacked by a younger opponent and he got out alive.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Actually he was good. He was attacked by a younger opponent and he got out alive.

I was speaking of his MMA skill. In the grand scheme of things it makes no difference, he may thought Tae Bo qualified as MMA. But the claim still stands. Zimmerman wasn't that good at MMA (as it is currently understood), if he trained in it 3 days a week, and taken so much to task by and unarmed untrained lighter opponent, that he resorted to using a firearm.