.223/5.56 vs. 6.8 spc

[jforrest]

I've searched and searched this site and have not found any topics even on the subject of the Remington 6.8 spc cartridge so if there is just show me a link.

I've been saving up for an AR for quite a while now and am planning on buying my first AR in the next month or 2. It is mainly going to be a target gun and I'm going for accuracy short and long range, but will also serve as a coyote/varmint shooter as well. I really like the Stag M6L or M7L. I have heard nothing but good things about Stag and since I'm a lefty their left hand models are icing on the cake.

I have done my research between the calibers and as far as ballistics, the 6.8 is superior. Shoots flatter, holds its energy longer, doesn't drift in the wind as easy, the list goes on. My problem arises in cost and availability. I'm a college student so money is a little tight. The .223 is a lot cheaper to shoot and I have never seen 6.8 in stores only online. I reload so I can brush off the price difference a little but I think the 6.8 will still be quite a bit more expensive. There are also a lot more options for .223 that I can experiment with at this time. I like the extra punch the 6.8 delivers, but I also think it might be a little much for coyotes if I'm trying to save the pelts.

I'm really leaning towards the .223 because I want to shoot this gun as much as possible so the cheaper the round the more I can shoot. I could possibly look into an AR chambered in 308 but I still bounce back to the .223 for price.

So suggestions would be greatly appreciated. To sum up what I want in an AR: Accuracy is my highest concern, I'll generally be shooting at 100 and 225 yard ranges but experimenting further out sometimes. Ammunition cost is a very close second since my budget is limited. Finally I really like Stag they make everything in house in the U.S.A and offer a left hand version, since it appears they only offer .223 and 6.8 spc I'm limited to these calibers.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

 

[sporter]

Get the .223. .223 can be had for under $5 a box at the moment...

6.8spc is exotic and will not catch on at any point in the near future.

 

[rushca01]

I own and shot 6.8.

Please check out ..::68FORUMS::.. and AR15 Performance, Made in USA, AR 15 uppers, piston operated tactical upper, 5.56, 6.8spc, custom precision barrels. I am a member of 68forums and Harrison has built a custom match 6.8 barrel for me, I also own one of his 5.56 barrels. Harrison is the owner of AR Performance and can answer all your questions. He even builds uppers in lefty

Remington gave the 6.8 a bad rep but it has come a long way in 3 years. New chamber, optimal twist and lots and lots of dead piggies. Most every AR manufacturer offers a 6.8 model now and they are also offering the correct chamber specs (SPCII vs SAMMI).

Couple things to consider. Quality 5.56 costs the same as quality 6.8 ammo. 5.56 has the edge for plinking ammo, if costs is an issue plink/train with 5.56 and hunt with 6.8x43. If you are looking to keep coyote pelts 6.8 may be too much, might want to consider a 204 ruger.

Let me know if there any questions you have, I would love to help.

 

[GPalmer]

Rush hit the nail on the head. Premium 5.56 and 6.8 are in the same league pricewise, 5.56 has the edge on plinking ammo by a considerable margin. I also think you should check out the 68forums for more information.

The 6.8 SPC can expand/fragment/disrupt out to 400 yards with the right ammo and barrel versus about 160 yards with the 5.56. If you're a college student you might move out of state and you'll find a lot of states will let you hunt with the 6.8 and not the 5.56.

Reloading shouldn't be that much more expensive. The bullets are a bit higher priced but there are Sierra ProHunters and others that are dirt cheap and great bullets. Powwder wise you'll run about 5 grains more per round which should be the biggest difference. (6.8 brass is pricey but if you go with SSA you should be getting 10 reloads or more per case).

There's a nice deal on the Stag upper here from Palmetto State Armory. I've had great service from them in the past. Good luck whichever way you choose!

 

[paintball_addiction]

If money is the issue right now, I would say go with the 5.56. It sounds like it will do everything you need right now. Then someday when you have the money, you can get a 6.8 upper. If you look long enough for a deal, you'll find one. Maybe they will be more common in the future as well.

 

[teddy12b]

I had a bushmaster 6.8mm when they first came out. The 6.8mm is a great cartridge if you have tons of $$ or reload (i reload). It's just so much easier to get 223/5.56 stuff mags, factory ammo, reloading components, etc. than for the 6.8mm SPC. It's a fine cartridge, but to me it wasn't worth the extra trouble.

 

[melensdad]

I've searched and searched this site and have not found any topics even on the subject of the Remington 6.8 spc cartridge . . .

There are several, some are directly related to the 6.8, some discuss other cartridges in comparison to the 6.8. Here are just a few threads:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...5090-6_8_spc_downgraded_by_remington_wtf.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/long_guns/50154-6_8_spc_vs_308_ar_platform.html

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/long_guns/44018-ar15s_in_6_8_spc_take_another_hit.html


Here is an old ballistic chart, it shows the 6.8 SPC at 2700 fps, that is very very unlikely to achieve, I believe Remington is now loading it to 2625 fps maximum, which reduces energy accordingly and it drops below 1000# of energy at about 205 yards.

 

[GPalmer]

Here is an old ballistic chart, it shows the 6.8 SPC at 2700 fps, that is very very unlikely to achieve, I believe Remington is now loading it to 2625 fps maximum, which reduces energy accordingly and it drops below 1000# of energy at about 205 yards.

There's an interesting story in that. I agree you won't get there with Remington ammo and it'd be a poor choice to try. They typically are not well regarded as a source for 6.8 ammo.

The velocity drop you mention was required because of the original SAMII spec being badly designed. Essentially, they didn't capture the work of Holland and Murray correctly. That led to the downloaded ammo you mention. Over the last couple of years almost all manufacturers have moved back to the original spec which is normally noted as SPC II. Current figures for loads which are compatible with the older spec in a 16" barrel are here, the 2575 fps would be the figure for a 16" rifle. You'll pick up some more velocity from the 20" barrel and if you're willing to download you can push it above the 2700 fps. Here's a link to a thread where the shooter was almost hitting 2800 with a 20" barrel and hand loads.

 

[melensdad]

Intersting story or not, I bought, played with, and was very disappointed in the 6.8 SPC so I sold mine on Gunbroker. I found it to be a lot of hype. Its the modern equivalent of a 30-30 but there are better rounds for the AR15 platform that offer harder hits than the 5.56 and do so at longer distances. The 6.8 SPC is good for hogs, good for deer out to 200 yards, but really "good" is about all you can say. It doesn't actually excel at anything. Is it bad? No. Is it good? I suppose it is. Its not for me. Its simply not good enough. The bullet choices for reloading are limited and generally of moderately poor ballistic coefficient. Anything can be 'pushed' to the limits but its rarely prudent to do so.

 

[GPalmer]

Intersting story or not, I bought, played with, and was very disappointed in the 6.8 SPC so I sold mine on Gunbroker. I found it to be a lot of hype. Its the modern equivalent of a 30-30 but there are better rounds for the AR15 platform that offer harder hits than the 5.56 and do so at longer distances. The 6.8 SPC is good for hogs, good for deer out to 200 yards, but really "good" is about all you can say. It doesn't actually excel at anything. Is it bad? No. Is it good? I suppose it is. Its not for me. Its simply not good enough. The bullet choices for reloading are limited and generally of moderately poor ballistic coefficient. Anything can be 'pushed' to the limits but its rarely prudent to do so.

First off, it seems you're getting a bit hot under the collar. No reason to do that because you're not up to date on the ballistics of a rifle caliber you no longer use, particularly one which has seen such rapid growth and development over the last few years.

If you were using the first iteration of the chamber I can certainly see your disappointment with the cartridge. The initial product released certainly did not live up to the promises. Let's look at what this cartridge was meant to be. It was meant to be the best compromise for special forces with a limited range of up to 500 yards against man size targets. Most crucially, it had to fit into the existing AR-15 platform. That resulted in compromises. The designers were not free to make it equivalent to the 30-06 unless they could fit it into an AR-15 which they couldn't.

Your range for 1K foot pounds are low. Here is a chart with the actual numbers for a variety of bullets in a 16" barrel. Those numbers aren't pushing any limits, they're ammo that could be fired out of any SPC II chamber. The hotter ammo from SSA or handloads will do better. One of the posters over at the 6.8 forums has chrono'd his handloads with the 110 grain Accubond at 2833 fps which means it carries 1K foot pounds out to about 350 yards.

So far as another cartridge for the AR-15 platform which offers harder hits and better range, which one would you be referring to? I'm guessing you mean the 6.5 Grendel which has only had a few tests performed and never beaten the 6.8 SPC in any testing. Quote from the Doctor Gary Roberts who is a noted terminal ballistics expert: There have been a few government 6.5G tests, but in every case, 6.8 mm has proven to better meet the end-user's requirements.

 

[melensdad]

Actually not hot under the collar at all, just dealing with facts. The 6.8 is over hyped and under performing. Period.

As I said, you can push anything but it is rarely prudent to do so. There are rounds that are more versatile, with greater ballistic coefficients, wider bullet range weights, greater inherent accuracy. The 6.8 is 'good' but nothing more.

The arguments that it was designed to be blah blah blah carry no weight with me because I have to deal with rounds that are used for hunting or target shooting, not for tactical warfare. Besides all the military testing that was performed a few years ago used bullets of dissimilar construction so penetration tests would be difficult to effectively compare in a rational manner. But as I said, I don't really care about military tests since I'm not in the military nor do I use my guns for military purposes.

Even the chart you linked is less than compelling. Using the standard 115 grain load it shows that its 1000ft lb limit is reached at 227 yards, I said it was good to about 200 yards. Compare that to the 6.5 Grendel with its standard 123 grain load that carries 1000K of energy out past 410 yards, almost double the range of the 6.8spc. By the way, carefully look at my chart, the one you claim is old, and then carefully look at your chart, the one you claim is valid. With identical loads the charts are nearly the same! (realize my chart is in meters, yours in yards)

The new 30 OSM also appears to be pretty dramatically better than the 6.8spc.

The older 243 WSSM and the 25 WSSM both also are vastly superior to the 6.8spc.

Given that all of them are available in the AR15 platform, all reach out to distances well beyond what a 6.8spc is effective, and all cost about the same per shot, I still contend that the 6.8 is merely a 'good' round but falls well short of being very good and certainly is not great.

 

[malern28us]

I can't tell you what to do but can suggest you do what I did. Look for deals...you might run into what I did and pickup a 6.8 SPC at a huge discount. It forced my hand...couldnt say no. Spend some time researching....hang out at 68forums. I have spent the last few months reading and reading and reading.
I have shot the 5.56 and the 6.8. I LOVE my 6.8 SPC. I havent hunted with it and have only picked up a bunch of the el cheapo 90 TNT rounds. They are just fun to shoot. THe 6.8 SPC gives you a nice "nudge." My father even said he likes it and says to him it is the next best thing to the .308.
I shoot my MAK 90 more only cause the ammo is cheaper but find myself more interested in the 6.8 SPC! If you lived closer, would let you go through a magazine or two to see for yourself. It is addicting.
I am finding the people over at 68forums are very helpful and their moderators do a fine job of keeping politics and BS out. Everyone is supportive.
I am new to this website but so like the idea of finding people more local to chat with also.
If I can offer any help ....let me know what I can do....
Take all of the decision making out of it and buy one of each....You'll be glad you did!

 

[malern28us]

Actually not hot under the collar at all, just dealing with facts. The 6.8 is over hyped and under performing. Period.

As I said, you can push anything but it is rarely prudent to do so. There are rounds that are more versatile, with greater ballistic coefficients, wider bullet range weights, greater inherent accuracy. The 6.8 is 'good' but nothing more.

The arguments that it was designed to be blah blah blah carry no weight with me because I have to deal with rounds that are used for hunting or target shooting, not for tactical warfare. Besides all the military testing that was performed a few years ago used bullets of dissimilar construction so penetration tests would be difficult to effectively compare in a rational manner. But as I said, I don't really care about military tests since I'm not in the military nor do I use my guns for military purposes.

Even the chart you linked is less than compelling. Using the standard 115 grain load it shows that its 1000ft lb limit is reached at 227 yards, I said it was good to about 200 yards. Compare that to the 6.5 Grendel with its standard 123 grain load that carries 1000K of energy out past 410 yards, almost double the range of the 6.8spc.

The new 30 OSM also appears to be pretty dramatically better than the 6.8spc.

The older 243 WSSM and the 25 WSSM both also are vastly superior to the 6.8spc.

Given that all of them are available in the AR15 platform, all reach out to distances well beyond what a 6.8spc is effective, and all cost about the same per shot, I still contend that the 6.8 is merely a 'good' round but falls well short of being very good and certainly is not great.

Ummm....

There might be a reason that the people in Iraq are actually using this. In a SBR you cannot honestly state that it does not perform as intended.

You might want to see that you are comparing highly dissimilar rounds. WHy dont you just throw the performance of the 50 bmg out there too?

I value your opinion...and dont even know you. 30 OSM? 243 WSSM? 25 WSSM? Who can afford to shoot these rounds? I believe the last I saw these were 2 bucks a round! If you reload you might get them to a dollar a round. I dont think you will get a whole lot of practice in at that price!

The gentleman was comparing a 5.56 to a 6.8 SPC and said he could not pick. Show me where the 5.56 outperforms the 6.8 SPC. ANYWHERE.

If he wants cheap ammo, def get a 5.56 and plinking rounds. If you want something that you can use on a wider variety of hunting apps, I would give consideration to the 6.8 SPC.

If you owned one a couple of years ago and got rid of it, then you wouldnt know much about what has come about lately. Please update yourself. I would be glad to shoot these other great calibers that you have mentioned but I too cannot afford 15 different rifles.

Please keep comparisons between 5.56 and 6.8 SPC. Help the guy out for petes sake. Prove the 5.56 is better than 6.8 for anything other than cheap rounds.

 

[melensdad]

When did I ever say it did not perform as intended?

Clearly it is better than the 5.56.

I simply said that it is nothing more than a good round. It clearly is not great.

As for the costs of the other rounds mentioned, (the 6.5 Grendel, 243 WSSM, 25 WSSM and the 30 OSM) they actually cost about the same as the 6.8 SPC to shoot. The 6.5 Grendel, in some of the loads from WOLF, is actually about 50-cents a shot, most of the 6.8 SPC is about a buck a shot. Handloads further level the playing field in costs, but the rounds with larger case capacity will cost a bit more while providing higher performance with that higher case capacity.

Now as for admonishing me for bringing up these other rounds, it was actually someone who replied to me who brought up the 6.5 Grendel. I simply stated in my posts that there are better rounds. Not until pushed by others did I get into specifics.

 

[malern28us]

I've searched and searched this site and have not found any topics even on the subject of the Remington 6.8 spc cartridge so if there is just show me a link.

I've been saving up for an AR for quite a while now and am planning on buying my first AR in the next month or 2. It is mainly going to be a target gun and I'm going for accuracy short and long range, but will also serve as a coyote/varmint shooter as well. I really like the Stag M6L or M7L. I have heard nothing but good things about Stag and since I'm a lefty their left hand models are icing on the cake.

I have done my research between the calibers and as far as ballistics, the 6.8 is superior. Shoots flatter, holds its energy longer, doesn't drift in the wind as easy, the list goes on. My problem arises in cost and availability. I'm a college student so money is a little tight. The .223 is a lot cheaper to shoot and I have never seen 6.8 in stores only online. I reload so I can brush off the price difference a little but I think the 6.8 will still be quite a bit more expensive. There are also a lot more options for .223 that I can experiment with at this time. I like the extra punch the 6.8 delivers, but I also think it might be a little much for coyotes if I'm trying to save the pelts.

I'm really leaning towards the .223 because I want to shoot this gun as much as possible so the cheaper the round the more I can shoot. I could possibly look into an AR chambered in 308 but I still bounce back to the .223 for price.

So suggestions would be greatly appreciated. To sum up what I want in an AR: Accuracy is my highest concern, I'll generally be shooting at 100 and 225 yard ranges but experimenting further out sometimes. Ammunition cost is a very close second since my budget is limited. Finally I really like Stag they make everything in house in the U.S.A and offer a left hand version, since it appears they only offer .223 and 6.8 spc I'm limited to these calibers.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

There are a bunch of choices on the AR platform and more are coming out all of the time. You would only be self limited to 5.56 and 6.8 SPC if you so choose to. The great thing is once you get a lower you can get an upper for a reasonable price.
Visit tons of sites...join up ...ask questions! There is no one site that will provide you the answer you are looking for. I have become slightly biased.

 

[malern28us]

Oh I am not picking on you. I am trying to get a feel for where you are coming from.
6.5 for 50 cents....is that wolf rounds? I had read somewhere that a majority of the gun makers that offer lifetime warranties void them if you use wolf.
I currently get my 6.8 rounds for 65 cents...I agree that it is pricey and would love to see it get cheaper. I also know that my price would get cheaper if I could ever get my reloading set up done.
I dont think that the 6.8 SPC would be a good choice for the 400 yard shots that he mentioned earlier. I cant think of an 400 yard shots I have taken in Indiana in my lifetime though.
The .308 might be a better all purpose cartridge for him if he wants something that does everything. Load it up or down, it is pretty flexible.

 

[melensdad]

Yes, the Wolf Gold 123 grain soft points were running me 50 cents a shot. Those are the brass cased, reloadable rounds not steel case surplus junk. They were sold (maybe still are?) by Alexander Arms which developed the Grendel. So NO they do NOT void any warranty!!! I picked up a bunch of cases, have not had to resupply lately.

In fact I'd like to see evidence that other gun makers void their warranties if you shoot WOLF brand ammo through their guns. You state that a "majority of gun makers" who offer lifetime warranties void them. Well there are only a few gunmakers who do that. So it would be interesting to see a listing. Further, are those gunmakers selecting just WOLF or are they specifying lacquered steel case rounds (which would include other brands)?

 

[malern28us]

Wish I had an answer for you on that one but dont.
So you have a 6.5?
Seems that it goes either way...people like 6.5 and dont care for the 6.8 or dont care for the 6.5 and prefer the 6.8. I personally have never shot the 6.5 and have no opinion on it.
Oh wait I do.....if you turn a 6.5 round so it is on its tip...it looks a lot like me...skinny on the bottom and fat on top! Nothing other than that though.
Was the 6.8 you played with a newer on with the new rifling and different groove options that they are now using to get extra velocity?

 

[jforrest]

Sorry I haven't been here, been out with the family all day. Thanks guys for all the opinions and help! The main reason I am limiting my choice to .223 and 6.8 is because Stag only offers those 2 calibers. I also like the history behind Stag, Stag's parent company is a manufacturing company (I forgot the name) and made M16 parts back when they first came out in the Vietnam war. They have supplied parts and even whole rifles for other companies before they decided to tap into the civilian market for themselves. I look at this history as proof they build quality rifles. I also like how they state in the catalog the M6 is guaranteed to shoot 1/2 MOA. I really want a left hand shooting AR and I need it to be affordable as well. I checked out AR Performance's website (a gentlemen from the beginning of this discussion referred them) but for the cost of an upper comparable to Stag's M6, I could buy a whole rifle from Stag and still have money left over.

I'm still leaning towards the .223 for cost of shooting. Like some of you have said, once I graduate I could move out of the state, although I hope and pray I don't. And once I am able to get a "real" job I could buy a different upper to suit my needs for hunting in that state.

On to another question, I might start a new thread for this but am not sure if it has already been asked. So once again just shoot some links if it has. To save a little more money I have noticed if I buy the Stag M6 complete upper and a complete AR-15 lower separately it will cost me $910 MSRP, vs. $1095 MSRP for a complete rifle. Now does this mean when I get the two parts all I have to do is assemble the upper to the lower? And in assembling these two complete parts is it just the 2 pins, or is there more to it? I'll probably be dealing with Blythe's Sport Shop, right here in Valpo, and they are an authorized dealer, so I asked them and I won't have to pay for an FFL transfer even if they have to order it.

Thanks again for all the help and keep sending your views on the 2 calibers as well as the parts question.

 

[Constructor]

Wish I had an answer for you on that one but dont.
So you have a 6.5?
Seems that it goes either way...people like 6.5 and dont care for the 6.8 or dont care for the 6.5 and prefer the 6.8. I personally have never shot the 6.5 and have no opinion on it.
Oh wait I do.....if you turn a 6.5 round so it is on its tip...it looks a lot like me...skinny on the bottom and fat on top! Nothing other than that though.
Was the 6.8 you played with a newer on with the new rifling and different groove options that they are now using to get extra velocity?

Seems like someone told me it was a Model 1 sales he had.
worst spec made.
I'll be back with some real drop comparisons between the 6.5 and 6.8 so everyone can see the truth.

6.5 Grendel using Bill's max hand loads in a 16" barrel published on the Grendel forum
- zeroed at 200yds drops at 300yds.
due to energy being less than 1000ft lbs 300 yds is about max for taking deer or hogs.
the same temp, pressure line of sight and program used to figure all drops in both calibers.
100 Nosler-2600fps--drop 9.4/801 ft lbs
107 SMK-2545fps-----drop9.5/878ft lbs
123 SMK-2472fps----drop 9.4/1083ft lbs
120TSX-2472fps----drop9.8/984ft lbs

6.8 SPC SSA factory ammo 16" barrel
100 Nosler-2700fps--drop9.0/809ft lbs
110 Nosler-2630fps--drop9.0/939ft lbs

6.8 handloads max
100 Nosler 2950fps---drop 7.4/993ftlbs
110 Nosler 2750fps--drop8.2/1040ftlbs

Not much difference, not as much as some would want others to think.
Funny thing about that Grendel chart, they always compare the best 6.5 match bullets to standard issue military bullets in the other rifles
and then use a distance that 95% of all shooters never shoot.