303-35Rem-1.8

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  • Broom_jm

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    Ever since Indiana introduced the idea of lengthening their PCR regulations to allow for the use of the 460S&W, meaning 1.800" case length, I have been looking at the 35 Remington as an easy round to modify and hunt with. A lot of folks have tested this idea and found that by simply shortening the neck ~.120", making it Indiana-legal, they could seat bullets at the normal length and shoot. The accuracy and performance have not suffered from this process, so you don't lose anything with the shorter brass.

    A good gunsmithing buddy of mine is offering an improvement on this idea, specifically for single-shot, break-action firearms. What he is doing is giving folks one of two options that follow the same basic idea of shortening 35 Remington brass, but stepping up the performance and making it a better round by giving it a rim.

    Depending on what you want to do, he can take a donor barrel for your H&R or other single-shot action, chambered in 357 Remington, 357 MAX, or even custom build you one using a 35 caliber blank. The chamber is bored out to either a full-length 35 Remington or short-chambered to a 1.8" version of the same round, but with the shoulder pushed back slightly, making it impossible to accidentally insert a full-length, factory 35 Remington case into the short chamber. That would be dangerous with a short chamber.

    Either way you decide to go, he then cuts a rim counterbore into the back of the chamber that will allow you to use 303 British or 30/40 Krag brass. The advantage here is both of those types of brass are much stronger than 35 Remington brass, allowing you to go to a "+P+" type of loading. The rim gives positive headspacing and assures easy extraction, even with gloved hands on cold November mornings. That's not always the case with rimless designs, like the 35 Remington. At the same time, the 303 and 30/40 cases still operate within a pressure threshold that is perfectly safe and suitable for the H&R SB2 frame. (If using a 357 Rem Mag barrel, make certain your frame is an SB2, not an SB1, as this conversion will be too powerful for the weaker SB1 frame.)

    What you wind up with is a barrel that will still shoot 35 Remington brass, trimmed to the Indiana-legal limit of 1.800" for deer hunting. However, if you size and trim 303 or 30/40 brass, you can load those rounds a bit warmer, giving you greater velocity and range. The advantage is you don't need custom reloading dies; you just sent the gunsmith a set of 35 Remington dies when you send in the barrel and he'll trim those to the right size, as well. If you decide the whole project was not worth the time and effort, you can sell the gun as a normal 35 Remington (if you had it short-chambered, it can easily be made full-length). The fact that the barrel was cut counterbore for the rim of the 303 or 30/40 does not preclude you from firing factory 35 Remington ammo in the gun and will not impact performance in any way.

    If any of you would be interested in a 303/35 Remington - 1.8", send me a private message and I'll put you in touch with the guy doing this particular conversion. He has assured me that he will give a 3-day turnaround for these jobs, so that you have your gun back in time to work up some loads and use them for deer hunting this fall.

    Jason
     

    mireley

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    short chamber 35 rem

    Jason,

    Would you consider sharing the name of the referenced gunsmith doing the short chambered 35 Remington?

    I am looking to get an .358 AR 15 barrel chambered to use 7.62x39 brass cut down and sized in a cut down 35 rem die.

    Thanks
     

    bstewrat3

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    You may want to look at the case dimensions for both cartridges, because the 7.62x39 is smaller in all dimensions. You would have to do some serious trimming on a 35 Remington die to get any sizing besides opening up the neck. Check with user Fireball168 on here though, because I think he has some involvement in a 358 bore cartridge based on the 7.62x39 or 6.5 Grendel case.
     

    remauto1187

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    Stepping Stone
    I would think all the custom work would just be false economy vs. just buying a .35rem rifle and production made dies and components. The .35rem cartridge and typical rifle is good for approximately 250-300yds....how much more performance do you need in Indiana? Its not like we are in wyoming taking 500yd shots across valleys.

    Every man has his own definition of a good time though. :ingo:
     

    Broom_jm

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    I would think all the custom work would just be false economy vs. just buying a .35rem rifle and production made dies and components. The .35rem cartridge and typical rifle is good for approximately 250-300yds....how much more performance do you need in Indiana? Its not like we are in wyoming taking 500yd shots across valleys.

    Every man has his own definition of a good time though. :ingo:

    Building a custom rifle is never about economy. The wildcat mentioned above is actually very inexpensive to have built, uses "production made dies and components" and really does deliver 250-300 yards worth of performance. That is not true of standard 35 Remington loads, unless you're dialing up a whole lot of elevation into your shot. Look up the charts and you'll find that 225-250 is really stretching it for a 35 Remington, even with LVR and FTX bullets.

    The gunsmith in question is David White of D&T Custom Gunsmithing. Your idea of resizing 7.62x39 brass (necked up?) in shortened 35 Remington dies does not make sense to me. If you want a 35 Gremlin, those are readily available from Fireball, on these pages, or by going to BFG Design, Wildcat Cartridge Design, Custom Barrels, Brass, Bullets and Dies.. For anything other than the 303-35Remington 1.8, I would recommend working with someone in-state.
     

    mireley

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    ....Your idea of resizing 7.62x39 brass (necked up?) in shortened 35 Remington dies does not make sense to me. If you want a 35 Gremlin, those are readily available from Fireball, on these pages, or by going to BFG Design, Wildcat Cartridge Design, Custom Barrels, Brass, Bullets and Dies.. For anything other than the 303-35Remington 1.8, I would recommend working with someone in-state.

    Jason,

    Thanks for the name.

    Yes, the case would be necked up then fire formed ending up with a case length about 1.5". From the web site BFG is not offering the Gremlin for an AR-15 citing "AR-15 quality parts availability". There is a gunsmith in Ludington MI that has done this wildcat. I was hoping that D&T might be here in Indiana. Do you know of anyone here in Indiana?

    Thanks
     

    Broom_jm

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    I don't know of anyone in Indiana, besides BFG, building a 35-caliber 'cat on a 7.62x39 case. Is there any particular reason you're wanting to base your rifle on that round? It's among the most difficult to get brass for and is already well short of the 1.8" limit. There are an awful lot of other options that make more sense, at least in my mind.
     

    kludge

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    I BS'ed a bit with someone else at the Boat Sport and Travel show last week doing a .358-6.5 Grendel... didn't get a card though... had a AR on display. So there is at least one more out there.
     

    Broom_jm

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    dose anyone in IN have a 303-35REM that can provide insight on how it performs

    I don't know of anyone who had one of these built and the gunsmith mentioned above is so overloaded with work, he wasn't accepting any new jobs, last I knew.
     

    bstewrat3

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    I am using the 35 Remington built on a 30-40 Krag case, which is very similar to what you are looking at doing. I use the Hornady 180gr SP-SSP bullet loaded over Leverevolution and took 5 deer with it at ranges from 40 to 200+ yards and never had to take a second shot. I am shooting it out of a T/C Contender using a Match Grade Machine 16" barrel chambered for 35 Remington and the rim cut added for the 30-40 Krag rim. I chose the 30-40 Krag over the 303 British because the base diameter is exactly the same as the 35 Remington and the 303 is .002 smaller. The only advantage the 303 has over the 30-40 is case availabilty which in a single shot doesn't bother me because I have 100 cases and they will last me the rest of my life.
     

    Broom_jm

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    I am using the 35 Remington built on a 30-40 Krag case, which is very similar to what you are looking at doing. I use the Hornady 180gr SP-SSP bullet loaded over Leverevolution and took 5 deer with it at ranges from 40 to 200+ yards and never had to take a second shot. I am shooting it out of a T/C Contender using a Match Grade Machine 16" barrel chambered for 35 Remington and the rim cut added for the 30-40 Krag rim. I chose the 30-40 Krag over the 303 British because the base diameter is exactly the same as the 35 Remington and the 303 is .002 smaller. The only advantage the 303 has over the 30-40 is case availabilty which in a single shot doesn't bother me because I have 100 cases and they will last me the rest of my life.

    If/when Indiana allows the use of regular cartridges, which has every appearance of being approved next spring, will you continue using your rifle as-is, or maybe extend it out to the wildcat 35-caliber version of the 30-40 Krag?

    I've thought about reaming out my 358GNR chamber to shoot 356 Winchester cases. The rim on the 356 is .004" smaller than the 445SM parent case for the wildcat I shoot, but I've been assured that is really of little consequence since the 356 rim is a little thicker and that can be opened up to work just fine.
     

    youngda9

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    A better idea would be to make it in 358 Winchester...yet only boring the chamber so the total brass length 1.8". (essentially the 358 "short" or Hoosier). That way you could make your own brass out of 308 or 358 win brass by bumping the shoulder back and trimming. Standard 358 dies could be used or trimmed if needed. 35 cal neck sizing die and 35 cal seating die would be all that's needed. Nothing too long could chamber in the rifle. Now you have 308/350 pressures and readily available brass. The gun can then be chambered for the full 358 win in the future if IN ever comes to its senses.

    Rimmed brass gives no advantage, IMO. It is a single shot anyways...so it isn't a fast reloader. It requires the ejector to push the brass out a bit before you can grab on. The rim makes little to no difference, only makes brass finding a little harder than good old 308.
     
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    Broom_jm

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    A better idea would be to make it in 358 Winchester...yet only boring the chamber so the total brass length 1.8". (essentially the 358 "short" or Hoosier). That way you could make your own brass out of 308 or 358 win brass by bumping the shoulder back and trimming. Standard 358 dies could be used or trimmed if needed. 35 cal neck sizing die and 35 cal seating die would be all that's needed. Nothing too long could chamber in the rifle. Now you have 308/350 pressures and readily available brass. The gun can then be chambered for the full 358 win in the future if IN ever comes to its senses.

    Rimmed brass gives no advantage, IMO. It is a single shot anyways...so it isn't a fast reloader. It requires the ejector to push the brass out a bit before you can grab on. The rim makes little to no difference, only makes brass finding a little harder than good old 308.

    Two things: It is very likely that Indiana is going to allow pretty much all centerfire rifle cartridges for 2015 and rimmed cartridges provide positive headspace and extraction in standing breech actions, making them advantageous in Contenders, Encores and H&R rifles. Also, the chamber I have is already cut for a rimmed 35-caliber cartridge, so that makes going to the 356 Winchester a natural evolution when we're no longer limited to 1.800" case lengths.
     

    Broom_jm

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    I read the proposal...people seem to think it's probable. I'm not so sure of that.

    The 1.625" and 1.800" proposal's were voted into law the spring following the year that they were proposed. Given that there is very strong support for these regulations, what makes you think these won't pass? From what I've seen, the stuff that is proposed each fall is usually passed, with little or no modification. Time will tell, but things are looking good. :)
     

    gunselman

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    I BS'ed a bit with someone else at the Boat Sport and Travel show last week doing a .358-6.5 Grendel... didn't get a card though... had a AR on display. So there is at least one more out there.

    CF Gunworks is who you talked to. They are build a barrel for me right now!
     
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