.350 Legend for Self / Home Defense?

[JAL]

Anyone else using a .350 Legend AR-15 for home/self defense . . . or considering it?

I'm well aware the .350 Legend was developed as a straight wall medium game hunting cartridge, notably for deer in mostly mid-west flatland states that have straight wall rifle cartridge hunting laws to limit effective range, and designed to be used in an AR-15 platform with an AR-15 lower, upper (baarreled and chambered for it), and bolt. Magazines are another matter. Apparently Indiana is a mix depending on land ownership . . . private vs public . . . from what I've read on it.

This isn't about hunting, though. It's about using a 16" mid-length AR-15 chambered in .350 Legend for self and home defense, which shouldn't need more than about 50 yards absolute max. I'm thinking the 160 grain Winchester Defender with its bonded, protected hollow point would be the most likely candidate in 20-round C-Product (aka Duramag) steel magazines. Haven't seen anything like it from the other ammo companies -- they (along with Winchester) are pursuing the hunting market.

Muzzle Velocity and Energy: 2225 fps and 1759 ft-lb
50 yard Velocity and Energy: 1976 fps and 1388 ft-lb with 0.3 inch rise (100 yard battle sight zero).

I'm not a huge fan of Muzzle Energy as an evaluation of cartridge efficacy. It goes up with the square of velocity. A very light bullet with huge velocity has enormous energy that belies observed efficacy. Momentum, however, is equally linear with mass and velocity (essentially co-equal in effect). Ran it through the Stopping Power Calculator, an iPhone and Android App, to see what it came up with. Taylor TKOF and Thorniley SP aren't very applicable as they're made for big bore rifles and huge, dangerous game. However, the Hatcher RSP and RSP expanded (for hollow point), created for evaluating small arms military rounds were quite good, especially compared to 64 grain .223 ammo (Winchester Silvertip Defense Tip).

Hatcher RSP = 87; expanded (expanding soft point / or hollow point) = 107
Higher score is better; Hatcher considered anything over 50 a reliable 90% man-stopper with a center of mass thoracic hit.

By comparison, for the 64 grain .223 Winchester Silvertip Defense Tip (not the hunting round):

Hatcher RSP = 15; expanded = 20
According to Hatcher, below 30 has a 30% one-shot stop and 30-49 a 50% probability. That is an interesting result, perhaps due to not considering other terminal ballistics characteristics such as very high velocity tumbling and yaw, which weren't as well known in the mid-1930's. Nevertheless, the reduced effectiveness of the 5.56x45 NATO round was immediately noted in the Sand Box when the 20" M16A2 was replaced by the 14.5" M4A1. This has prompted DoD evaluating a replacement for it, such as the Sig Fury (currently outrageously expensive). The .458 SOCOM (or .450 Bushmaster) would also be a Big Thumper, but very expensive, and building AR's with it seems to have run its course. Don't need 300 meters unless TEOTWAWKI Apocalypse occurs. For that there's the 5.56x45mm in plentiful quantity.

Thoughts on .350 Legend Self/Home Defense use?

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Notes on Hatcher RSP:
Created by Major General Hatcher (US Army) in the mid-1930's in the Ordnance Department at Aberdeen Proving Ground for evaluating cartridge effectiveness against enemy personnel. Uses bullet mass, velocity, projectile frontal area (a function of caliber), and bullet form factor (shape) to account for spitzer vs round nose, hollow point, etc. High energy with low mass and bullet diameter don't fare well with TKOF, Thorniley SP or Hatcher's formulas. Hatcher favors the larger bores, such as .45 Colt, .45 ACP and .44 Magnum, and expanding bullets versus FMJ.

For the geeks, discussion about Hatcher's formula and his development of it is here:

http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2012/12/measuring-effectiveness-of-cartridges_28.html

 

[two70]

The 350 Legend should be very effective against unarmored bad guys inside of 150 yards.

I'd be a bit concerned that the 160 grain bonded load would over penetrate as it is designed for hunting and deeper penetration. I would think any cup and core bullet from 150-170 grains would work well for home defense. If you aren't concerned about over penetration then Underwood offers a 170 grain TSX at 2300 fps which would be another good option. They also offer a 150 grain controlled chaos load at 2450 fps that should be absolutely devastating and greatly reduce the chance of over penetration.

As for cartridge evaluation formulas, IMO, muzzle energy is reasonably good way of comparing the potential capabilities of cartridges and can be used to somewhat accurately judge the likely terminal effectiveness of a cartridge provided one understands its limitations. The problem is that it doesn't take into account bullet design/performance and requires a significant amount of interpretation, especially at the extreme ends of the spectrum(ie. very fast, light bullets on one end vs. very heavy, slow bullets on the other). It does tend to overestimate the effectiveness of fast cartridges and underestimate the effectiveness of slower cartridges as mentioned. It also tends to underestimate the effectiveness of wide flat nosed bullets at moderate to low velocities.

I agree the TKOF is best limited to very large animals not very susceptible to shock as it was intended. The Hatcher RSP was new to me but seems reasonable at first look. I would agree with its relative valuation of different bullet designs and like that it incorporates that into the calculation. Where I think it falls down a bit is that due to when it was created, it does not account for modern, advanced bullets fully.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Lots of good info there!

I don't really have anything useful to add, but am quite interested in the question. When considering self defense/home defense options it seems like most of the conversation, at least at the cursory level, tends to be a debate between 12ga shotgun vs AR-15 chambered in 223/556. 12ga proponent will cite its impressive stopping power, whereas AR-15 proponents will generally point to the higher ammo capacity, lighter recoil, and better ergonomics as the chief reasons to choose one.

At some point it had occurred to me that an AR-15 chambered in a big bore round like 450 bushmaster might be a nice "in between" option, but I'd never seen it discussed by anyone with much knowledge surrounding the question.

The .458 SOCOM (or .450 Bushmaster) would also be a Big Thumper, but very expensive, and building AR's with it seems to have run its course.

I'm curious what you mean by this part? I'm not sure about .458 SOCOM, but .450 Bushmaster uppers still seem to be readily available for reasonable prices. Is it mostly the cost/availability of ammo that you're referring to?

 

[JAL]

Lots of good info there!

I don't really have anything useful to add, but am quite interested in the question. When considering self defense/home defense options it seems like most of the conversation, at least at the cursory level, tends to be a debate between 12ga shotgun vs AR-15 chambered in 223/556. 12ga proponent will cite its impressive stopping power, whereas AR-15 proponents will generally point to the higher ammo capacity, lighter recoil, and better ergonomics as the chief reasons to choose one.

At some point it had occurred to me that an AR-15 chambered in a big bore round like 450 bushmaster might be a nice "in between" option, but I'd never seen it discussed by anyone with much knowledge surrounding the question.

I'm curious what you mean by this part? I'm not sure about .458 SOCOM, but .450 Bushmaster uppers still seem to be readily available for reasonable prices. Is it mostly the cost/availability of ammo that you're referring to?

It's mostly the ammo for either one. Thus far, .300 AAC Blackout and .350 Legend aren't as costly per round. I've been building my own uppers from parts. The .450 Bushmaster and .458 SOCOM each need their own bolt, and I believe they both need larger ejection ports on the uppers to handle the larger diameter cartridge cases. I don't generally mix bolts around, as they wear in with the barrel extension, but having them all 5.56/.223 is still desirable for me. I've changed barrels on uppers. If I were to go with either, I'd be leaning toward the .458 SOCOM, but not in the foreseeable future. 5.56x45, .300 AAC Blackout and .350 Legend are plenty for now.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Is this just a thought experiment or is this a legit question as to if a boutique cartridge makes a hair in a bear's ass difference to shooting humans at close range vs established and widely used people shooting cartridges with a wide selection of people shooting ammunition available and proven?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Dude, it's a .30-30 (slightly less ME). 1,700 ft/lbs vs. 1800, meh.


The shootings I've had are close, even with long guns, several muzzle contact. It's going to make a mess and pass through. Touch it off inside and it will be heavy metal feedback for days.


Gun retention (I see lots of rassling over long guns), suppressor availability, training, inter alia come ay before the cartridge.

 

[Mgderf]

I don't want to be shot by ANY caliber.

 

[Amishman44]

I don't want to be shot by ANY caliber.

Ditto this...even a .22lr is not on my list of an 'acceptable' GSW!

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Well, if I get to pick, I would prefer not be shot with a rubber band either...

What conclusion exactly are we supposed to draw from this?

 

[Mgderf]

Well, if I get to pick, I would prefer not be shot with a rubber band either...

What conclusion exactly are we supposed to draw from this?

That we have low pain thresholds?

 

[JAL]

Is this just a thought experiment or is this a legit question as to if a boutique cartridge makes a hair in a bear's ass difference to shooting humans at close range vs established and widely used people shooting cartridges with a wide selection of people shooting ammunition available and proven?

It's a "legit" question about the caliber in an AR-15 platform home defense role. The "thought experiment" is what I went through looking at its terminal ballistics compared in particular to 64 gr. .223. Briefly looked at .300 AAC Blackout, another with more "thump" than the .223, and by my evaluation would land between the two. If there's a .350 Legend AR-15 in the gun closet, would a 20-round mag of something like the 160 grain Winchester Defender, supposedly made for self-defense, be practical for home defense?

I've seen quite a few "people shooting" calibers over 50 years, 20 of which were in the U.S. Army, and the very gruesome consequences of their use. Sounds, and especially sights and smells you can't fully "un-see" or "un-smell". I've no doubt those with careers in law enforcement have also experienced it.

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I believe the .350 Legend has grown beyond "boutique" with greater hunting use in the flatlands where backstops for high powered cartridges aren't prevalent, particularly among younger hunters for lighter weight and shorter rifles (notwithstanding Ron Spomer's Lever Action Love Affair). I spent 5th grade through 6 years of post-secondary in Arizona. Medium to large game hunting there is considerably different with .30-06 and .308 the most common I saw during those years, with safe longer range shooting possible.

 

[JAL]

Dude, it's a .30-30 (slightly less ME). 1,700 ft/lbs vs. 1800, meh.


The shootings I've had are close, even with long guns, several muzzle contact. It's going to make a mess and pass through. Touch it off inside and it will be heavy metal feedback for days.


Gun retention (I see lots of rassling over long guns), suppressor availability, training, inter alia come ay before the cartridge.

Your comparison to .30-30 gives some food for thought regarding how much thump might be too much indoors.

I could go the Joe Biden route with a 12 gauge (yep -- gots one) and #4 buckshot. IMHO a slug indoors will easily pass through, and #00 buckshot at close range will too. I saw what a 12 gauge with #00 buckshot did 50 years ago when an acquaintance of my brother went berserk, shot his wife, and two others in the house at the time in the crime scene photography -- part of the ensuing investigation about who everyone was and their relationships. A third person managed to get out the back and over a wall, after which the acquaintance shot himself in the chest with a 9mm, bleeding out while confessing what he'd done to the local PD. Footnote: autopsy showed he had a large brain tumor.

A defensive shooting indoors that immediately stops a threat is going to "make a mess" no matter what (an understatement). I saw more than enough for one lifetime of what small arms (and some much bigger stuff) does during two decades in the U.S. Army. Touching off a centerfire long gun or 12 ga. shotgun with buckshot indoors without hearing protection will most likely cause some permanent hearing damage. Thanks to Uncle Sam I'm living with some long-term effects. Unlike Hollywood Fiction, anything .380 ACP or bigger will go through multiple residential walls if not stopped by someone, or some large piece of HEAVY furniture or a major appliance. My brother (same one from above) touched off a .357 Magnum inside my father's home. Dad showed me how many walls it passed through before a piece of solid cherry furniture, with an inch and a half of cherry wood finally took enough steam out of it to stop in a stud in wall #3.

Your other thoughts regarding training, etc. are a given. I agree that firearm retention is critical, something we dove into with infantry troops during Desert Shield . . . in prep for Desert Storm . . . with the possibility of house-to-house clearing operations . . . not much of a consideration during the Cold War and Western Europe Fulda Gap scenario . . . except for MP stockade and prison guards. The years that followed in Afghanistan and Iraq with house clearing operations after my career ended bore this out . . . and experience with it improved the retention techniques and training. You don't want to allow a grappling situation (i.e. a melee) if at all possible. Mano a mano grappling is dramatic in Hollywood Fiction but outcomes are much too difficult to control in real life.

What one uses, and how, is situational in response to a specific threat. Having options is important.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

It's a "legit" question about the caliber in an AR-15 platform home defense role. The "thought experiment" is what I went through looking at its terminal ballistics compared in particular to 64 gr. .223. Briefly looked at .300 AAC Blackout, another with more "thump" than the .223, and by my evaluation would land between the two. If there's a .350 Legend AR-15 in the gun closet, would a 20-round mag of something like the 160 grain Winchester Defender, supposedly made for self-defense, be practical for home defense?

I've seen quite a few "people shooting" calibers over 50 years, 20 of which were in the U.S. Army, and the very gruesome consequences of their use. Sounds, and especially sights and smells you can't fully "un-see" or "un-smell". I've no doubt those with careers in law enforcement have also experienced it.

---

I believe the .350 Legend has grown beyond "boutique" with greater hunting use in the flatlands where backstops for high powered cartridges aren't prevalent, particularly among younger hunters for lighter weight and shorter rifles (notwithstanding Ron Spomer's Lever Action Love Affair). I spent 5th grade through 6 years of post-secondary in Arizona. Medium to large game hunting there is considerably different with .30-06 and .308 the most common I saw during those years, with safe longer range shooting possible.

If you already have one? Sure. Would I purposefully seek one out strictly for this role? No. I don't really care what's used for game hunting in the context under discussion, but if my game gun was what's available I'd use it without hesitation.

55 gr JSP that hits meat will shatter and not go blazing through the walls behind that meat. I can personally put it to work and can attest it looks like a melon baller scooped meat out of someone when you shoot them with it. I don't care enough to put the $$$ in for a SBR/silencer combo, so those concerns are also irrelevant to me.

 

[two70]

Is this just a thought experiment or is this a legit question as to if a boutique cartridge makes a hair in a bear's ass difference to shooting humans at close range vs established and widely used people shooting cartridges with a wide selection of people shooting ammunition available and proven?

"Boutique" or not .350 Legend is superior in terminal ballistics to a .233/5.56 within reasonable self defense range. Does it matter? In as much as the difference between dead/out of the fight sooner vs. dead/out of the fight later matters, then yes. Stopping a fight immediately upon delivering a vital hit is preferable to stopping a fight eventually after a vital hit.

As for ammo, bullet design and performance is much more critical in small calibers than larger calibers and it's a lot easier to pick poor ammo for the 5.56 than it is the .350 Legend. With the exception of a few fmj/subsonic loads all .350 Legends loads are designed for some combination of deep penetration and massive tissue damage. With 5.56 one has to put some effort into finding ammo that isn't fmj and is actually designed for terminal performance. Many will simply buy the cheapest crap they can find.

Established and widely used are rather poor criteria for picking a defensive round when a superior option is available, IMO. Once upon a time .38 Special from a revolver or .44/40 from a rifle or similar were the established and widely used choices for defensive purposes. More effective options replaced them eventually. Let's not pretend that performance is the main reason people choose 5.56 either. They choose the platform and 5.56 happens to be cartridge it was designed for and the option most widely available in it. Many of the reasons that the platform was designed around that particular cartridge don't really apply to civilians as much or at all.

 

[two70]

Dude, it's a .30-30 (slightly less ME). 1,700 ft/lbs vs. 1800, meh.


The shootings I've had are close, even with long guns, several muzzle contact. It's going to make a mess and pass through. Touch it off inside and it will be heavy metal feedback for days.


Gun retention (I see lots of rassling over long guns), suppressor availability, training, inter alia come ay before the cartridge.

Ballistically, it is similar to the .30-30. In terms or terminal velocity, a .30-30 is superior to 5.56, and .350 Legend pushes a larger diameter, typically heavier bullet faster.

Handgun vs. rifle indoors is a different debate and rather moot if the OP has already decided to go with a rifle.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

"Boutique" or not .350 Legend is superior in terminal ballistics to a .233/5.56 within reasonable self defense range. Does it matter? In as much as the difference between dead/out of the fight sooner vs. dead/out of the fight later matters, then yes. Stopping a fight immediately upon delivering a vital hit is preferable to stopping a fight eventually after a vital hit.

As for ammo, bullet design and performance is much more critical in small calibers than larger calibers and it's a lot easier to pick poor ammo for the 5.56 than it is the .350 Legend. With the exception of a few fmj/subsonic loads all .350 Legends loads are designed for some combination of deep penetration and massive tissue damage. With 5.56 one has to put some effort into finding ammo that isn't fmj and is actually designed for terminal performance. Many will simply buy the cheapest crap they can find.

Established and widely used are rather poor criteria for picking a defensive round when a superior option is available, IMO. Once upon a time .38 Special from a revolver or .44/40 from a rifle or similar were the established and widely used choices for defensive purposes. More effective options replaced them eventually. Let's not pretend that performance is the main reason people choose 5.56 either. They choose the platform and 5.56 happens to be cartridge it was designed for and the option most widely available in it. Many of the reasons that the platform was designed around that particular cartridge don't really apply to civilians as much or at all.

In brief:

5.56 is a fight stopper if you do your part even half way right. Whatever difference there is on paper amounts to a hair in a bear's ass in the real world.

I don't care what most people do with ammo selection, but if the argument is that people are too cheap to buy quality ammo, you're going to recommend something that costs at least half again as much to shoot to them? Ok.

People carried swords at one point. What's that got to do with if .350 Legend is somehow more betterer at anything that matters in the context we're discussing. Popular things are often popular for a reason, but just as importantly popular things get the latest developments sooner. The biggest issue with .38 Special now is nobody gives a **** about .38 Special aside from snubbies, so it doesn't get the R&D and manufacturing bucks 9mm does. It still works just fine, though.

What's a .350 legend that hits a crackhead in the chest do to the wall(s) behind it? What's a 55gr JSP do? Is that relevant?

 

[bwframe]

How finicky is the .350 legend on reliability vs the time and training proven 5.56 or even possibly 300 BLK?

AR platform was designed for 5.56. A lot of us have seen some of the trouble with different cartridges that kind of run or run "most of the time."

A hunting round for an occasional shot or two might be different than needed for a multiple attacker home invasion?



Done a search, after asking the question. This gent says he has reliability problems...

 

[JAL]

How finicky is the .350 legend on reliability vs the time and training proven 5.56 or even possibly 300 BLK?

AR platform was designed for 5.56. A lot of us have seen some of the trouble with different cartridges that kind of run or run "most of the time."

A hunting round for an occasional shot or two might be different than needed for a multiple attacker home invasion?



Done a search, after asking the question. This gent says he has reliability problems...

You are correct that a "duty rifle" needs to be reliable.

Saw similar videos regarding feed problems when considering building a .350 Legend and then did some research. Feed issues are commonly related to magazines, barrel extensions & upper feed ramps, and occasionally the projectile form factor (mostly a problem with hand loads and some of the projectiles they're trying to use). Everything I've seen online proclaims C-Product Duramag the most reliable. This gets more into gunsmithing . . . when I built the upper I inspected the barrel, its extension and how its feed ramps mated with the upper. It's as if they were made for each other. I usually hesitate to denigrate brands, but Bear Creek Arsenal's .350 Legend uppers and barrels kept cropping up in online videos and forums as problematic with owners trying to deal with feed problems. Don't know what he was using in his video . . . looked like a Ballistic Advantage lower (spade logo) and handguard was Aero Precision (Atlas ??) with Ballistic Advantage branding (also spade logo). Likely Ballistic Advantage & Aero Precision throughout. The two companies have common ownership. Seems he was having finicky magazine issues. I've done some feed testing on mine and it seems to be working as it should . . . mags, feed ramps and ammo. Gas system doesn't seem to be finicky.

As an aside, the .300 AAC Blackout is finicky about its gas system, especially with the heavier, lower velocity bullets, subsonic in particular. If using that for home defense were a possibility I'd be looking at its reliability with the chosen cartridge. Another long topic for another day.

Even the best laid plans can go awry . . . should always have a "Plan B and Plan C". Testing something that might be used for defensive purposes is part of risk mitigation.

 

[JAL]

In brief:

. . .

What's a .350 legend that hits a crackhead in the chest do to the wall(s) behind it? What's a 55gr JSP do? Is that relevant?

The risk of collateral damage is relevant in the self-defense context and venue in which defensive action is taken. It's something I've considered within my own dwelling. What am I willing to accept? It's a question I revisit periodically.

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Regarding 5.56x45 (and .223), companies are making "barrier blind" rounds for law enforcement, such as the 64 grain Winchester Ranger Bonded RA556B, touted as the "FBI Duty Round", and the Hornady "TAP Barrier", and "TAP Patrol" in several bullet weights. If I were a TEOTWAWKI Prepper stockpiling ammo I might want some of it. For home defense against an intruder, a "barrier blind" cartridge could potentially cause more collateral damage than one that isn't. Caliber can't be considered in a vacuum. Projectile design is important.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

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Regarding 5.56x45 (and .223), companies are making "barrier blind" rounds for law enforcement, such as the 64 grain Winchester Ranger Bonded RA556B, touted as the "FBI Duty Round", and the Hornady "TAP Barrier", and "TAP Patrol" in several bullet weights. If I were a TEOTWAWKI Prepper stockpiling ammo I might want some of it. For home defense against an intruder, a "barrier blind" cartridge could potentially cause more collateral damage than one that isn't. Caliber can't be considered in a vacuum. Projectile design is important.

What's a .350 legend that hits a crackhead in the chest do to the wall(s) behind it? What's a 55gr JSP do? Is that relevant?