.350 Legend for Self / Home Defense?

[Route 45]

These threads are entertaining. Theorists on INGO with their hypotheticals worrying about what percentage of a nuclear blast is a sufficient amount of energy for their home defense. Wild Bill Hickok killed 6 or 7 men in gunfights with an 1851 Colt Navy .36 revolver with worse ballistics than modern day .380 ACP. And without a red dot!

There is no secret boutique caliber that has any meaningful advantage over what is tried and true for self/home defense.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Wild Bill Hickok killed 6 or 7 men in gunfights with an 1851 Colt Navy .36 revolver with worse ballistics than modern day .380 ACP. And without a red dot!

So you're saying... my 5-shot snubby is enough?

 

[Route 45]

So you're saying... my 5-shot snubby is enough?

Sure, if that's what everyone else has.

And you are Wild Bill.

 

[two70]

In brief:

5.56 is a fight stopper if you do your part even half way right. Whatever difference there is on paper amounts to a hair in a bear's ass in the real world.

I don't care what most people do with ammo selection, but if the argument is that people are too cheap to buy quality ammo, you're going to recommend something that costs at least half again as much to shoot to them? Ok.

People carried swords at one point. What's that got to do with if .350 Legend is somehow more betterer at anything that matters in the context we're discussing. Popular things are often popular for a reason, but just as importantly popular things get the latest developments sooner. The biggest issue with .38 Special now is nobody gives a **** about .38 Special aside from snubbies, so it doesn't get the R&D and manufacturing bucks 9mm does. It still works just fine, though.

What's a .350 legend that hits a crackhead in the chest do to the wall(s) behind it? What's a 55gr JSP do? Is that relevant?

In the real world, I've seen what 5.56 and .350 both do to human sized animals. Granted animals are tougher than humans but there is a good reason 5.56 is not legal for hunting for medium game in most places and .350 is everywhere that centerfire rifles are legal. Is it absolutely necessary for human varmints? No, but it is clearly an effective alternative.

I sometimes forget this is INGO and it is the INGO way to spend $2,000+ on a rifle, another $2,000+ on accessories but then worry about a few extra bucks for better ammo. That's pretty close to the definition of penny wise and pound foolish, IMO.

One of the only two reasons you gave for sticking with 5.56 was its popularity. I was pointing out that other cartridges were once very popular for self defense but now would typically be considered weak and less effective.

Overpenetration might be a problem or it might not. That's up to the individual to decide. Not everyone lives someplace where it is a huge concern. Most .350 legend loads will penetrate more than 55 grain JSP. I'm not sure the same is true with a 55 grain or heavier fmj as many will choose to use.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

In the real world, I've seen what 5.56 and .350 both do to human sized animals. Granted animals are tougher than humans but there is a good reason 5.56 is not legal for hunting for medium game in most places and .350 is everywhere that centerfire rifles are legal. Is it absolutely necessary for human varmints? No, but it is clearly an effective alternative.

If you already have one? Sure. Would I purposefully seek one out strictly for this role? No. I don't really care what's used for game hunting in the context under discussion, but if my game gun was what's available I'd use it without hesitation.

I sometimes forget this is INGO and it is the INGO way to spend $2,000+ on a rifle, another $2,000+ on accessories but then worry about a few extra bucks for better ammo. That's pretty close to the definition of penny wise and pound foolish, IMO.

Is it?

One of the only two reasons you gave for sticking with 5.56 was its popularity. I was pointing out that other cartridges were once very popular for self defense but now would typically be considered weak and less effective.

Popular things are often popular for a reason, but just as importantly popular things get the latest developments sooner. The biggest issue with .38 Special now is nobody gives a **** about .38 Special aside from snubbies, so it doesn't get the R&D and manufacturing bucks 9mm does. It still works just fine, though.

Overpenetration might be a problem or it might not. That's up to the individual to decide. Not everyone lives someplace where it is a huge concern.

What's a .350 legend that hits a crackhead in the chest do to the wall(s) behind it? What's a 55gr JSP do? Is that relevant?

 

[two70]

Is it?

If anything, that is a generous assessment. Spending $4,000 on a rifle and accessories because you won't bet your life on less, then turning around and betting your life on a cheap bullet, the only thing that interfaces with the target, seems wise to you?

 

[Hookeye]

Some bullets may excel in certain situations, but what about a bullet that just does good across a wider range?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If anything, that is a generous assessment. Spending $4,000 on a rifle and accessories because you won't bet your life on less, then turning around and betting your life on a cheap bullet, the only thing that interfaces with the target, seems wise to you?

Didn't realize that was an INGO thing. I thought INGO was the home of "just as good as". Maybe there's a bunch of $4k home defense rifles here, but I strongly suspect there's more PSA guns and frankenARs.

My recommendation has long been to start out with a S&W M&PII and then git gud. If you shoot out that rifle, look at a more expensive one now that you know what you are getting in to. I haven't looked at pricing for years now, but the M&PII seemed the ideal intersection of price to quality to me at the time. What ammo you choose should depend on your use case. As we've both said, over penetration may or may not be a concern. What is the likely threat? I changed my plans/equipment when I had a credible threat that increased my concerns of someone shooting into my house from inside a vehicle. For in the house use, my go to remains the 12 gauge, but I broke out the AR for that time period.

 

[bwframe]

...My recommendation has long been to start out with a S&W M&PII and then git gud. If you shoot out that rifle, look at a more expensive one now that you know what you are getting in to. I haven't looked at pricing for years now, but the M&PII seemed the ideal intersection of price to quality to me at the time. What ammo you choose should depend on your use case. As we've both said, over penetration may or may not be a concern. What is the likely threat? I changed my plans/equipment when I had a credible threat that increased my concerns of someone shooting into my house from inside a vehicle. For in the house use, my go to remains the 12 gauge, but I broke out the AR for that time period.

I live rural. The braced pistol in 5.56 or 300BLK seemed the best solution for inside and out here. Plenty of rounds and adequate precision to reach them out a ways, if needed. It's a shame they forced us to get rid of them.

The rifle still works and does, but not near as mobile inside though. You do have economical options to "get gud" with the rifle though. PCP and 22LR duplicates of your ranch rifle come very close to the exact operation, recoil, etc. Training, competition and range time can also familiarize you with amplified earpro which might be handy to get into quick at home, should the opportunity present itself? Most 22LR and PCP's will help you out on your malfunction clearing training also.

 

[two70]

Didn't realize that was an INGO thing. I thought INGO was the home of "just as good as". Maybe there's a bunch of $4k home defense rifles here, but I strongly suspect there's more PSA guns and frankenARs.

My recommendation has long been to start out with a S&W M&PII and then git gud. If you shoot out that rifle, look at a more expensive one now that you know what you are getting in to. I haven't looked at pricing for years now, but the M&PII seemed the ideal intersection of price to quality to me at the time. What ammo you choose should depend on your use case. As we've both said, over penetration may or may not be a concern. What is the likely threat? I changed my plans/equipment when I had a credible threat that increased my concerns of someone shooting into my house from inside a vehicle. For in the house use, my go to remains the 12 gauge, but I broke out the AR for that time period.

There's definitely the "just as good as" contingent but more and more I'm seeing them being shouted down by a growing chorus from the gucci gun crowd. Some flavor of FMJ seems to be the ammo of choice for most of the above.

I agree with that. Neither extreme made a lot for me but then I'm not independently wealthy enough for the gucci stuff. Or at least I have too many expensive hobbies for them. The S&W AR's are hovering around $750 right now. IWI's AR is about the same price and seems to have a good reputation.

 

[ECS686]

These threads are entertaining. Theorists on INGO with their hypotheticals worrying about what percentage of a nuclear blast is a sufficient amount of energy for their home defense. Wild Bill Hickok killed 6 or 7 men in gunfights with an 1851 Colt Navy .36 revolver with worse ballistics than modern day .380 ACP. And without a red dot!

There is no secret boutique caliber that has any meaningful advantage over what is tried and true for self/home defense.

Oh no you didn’t just go there??? With that kind of talk the cult of the Red Dot religion will show up and then the you have to have a WML on your handgun crowd will have something to say!!!!

 

[Route 45]

Oh no you didn’t just go there??? With that kind of talk the cult of the Red Dot religion will show up and then the you have to have a WML on your handgun crowd will have something to say!!!!

I'm not worried about those astigmatism ridden Mr. Magoos.

 

[JAL]

Didn't realize that was an INGO thing. I thought INGO was the home of "just as good as". Maybe there's a bunch of $4k home defense rifles here, but I strongly suspect there's more PSA guns and frankenARs.

. . .

Gucci Guns vs. Poverty Ponies

Mine are either complete home builds from components, upper and lower, or a home built lower with a complete upper. I've got a a couple "A2" style PSA uppers (their BCGs aren't PSA). Nothing to write home and brag about, but they work well enough. A third is a complete upper from Ballistic Advantage with all the components I wanted on it. It was less expensive than buying everything separately and building it myself. For another BA upper (other than BCG), it was cheaper to buy all the components than to buy the identical upper already built with them. BA is joined at the hip with Aero Precision (same owners). Building my own from stripped lower and upper allows getting the components I want instead of buying one already built, and then replacing stuff. Doing the latter isn't efficient and costs more. What to do with the replaced and undesired components? Must confess that I put red dots on them, but they're not Aimpoint or EOTECH. Much easier with my aged eyes that had cataract surgery a couple decades ago. The .350 Legend prompting my creating this thread is a build from piece parts, upper and lower.

I believe quite a few on INGO do their own builds. I was taught how to take an M16 completely apart into its piece parts and put it back together again decades ago by one of the unit armorers in one of my commands. He did it over several weeks, as my other duties permitted, at my behest. My unit wasn't at 100% strength, so we had a few extras in the arms room. Did it to learn more about the M16, what made it run, and how best to maintain one. We had a few crew served bigger arms, but the M16 was my soldiers' primary weapon. A rifle without a soldier is useless, and a soldier without a rifle is useless, regardless of MOS and duty position.

Doesn't matter if it's a "Franken-Rifle" or a Poverty Pony. (If you want to see true Franken-Rifles, look up photos of what some 3rd World insurgencies are using, held together and repaired with sheet metal, sheet metal screws, baling wire, and chewing gum.) Is it maintained properly? Does it run reliably with the ammo to be used? Does it have sufficient precision to enable sufficient accuracy in the user's hands, for the tasks at hand. Eugene Stoner wasn't designing a competition match rifle, or a long-range sniper rifle. My thoughts on it.

---

Self Defense Caliber and Cartridge Selection:

Caliber and the specific cartridge selected in that caliber for "self-defense", particularly inside a dwelling, would (should) depend on situation. What I'd choose for use inside a cheaply built apartment with wife and three rug rats, and similar neighbors, would be completely different from what I'd choose living by myself inside a brick home with neighbors that have similarly constructed brick dwellings and wide spaces between the homes. Unlike a "duty rifle" which could potentially be used in a very wide range of venues, indoors and outdoors, a personal home-defense one would be used in a single venue.

After 20 years of the U.S. Army I'm poignantly aware of what various small arms will do to humans, and what they can penetrate, along with the bigger crew served stuff, some of it much bigger. That said, Uncle Sam uses FMJ ball ammo for its small arms. Definitely isn't like the movies and TV. You can also look up what Chicago PD did to Fred Hampton and Mark Clark on Dec 4th 1969, and the bullet trajectories that riddled his apartment. Think what you will about that era's Black Panthers (my opine isn't a good one), it was a CPD assassination, and a demonstration of bullet penetration through multiple objects within a dwelling.

Unlike the military, civilians are able to select different projectiles that will behave differently regarding penetration (unless one lives in a non-free state like New Jersey), and they're usually using different barrel lengths which also affects terminal ballistics. Bottom line is there are options for a specific venue. The choice should be an educated and informed one about the risk-benefit ratio -- also considering one's experience with the barrel length, caliber and projectiles (if one has that experience). What I choose to use may be completely different from what someone else chooses, with both being rational choices.

 

[Ark]

"Can you use..." and "should you buy..." are two very different questions. Can you? Of course, much like how many bad guys throughout history have been dropped by the family 30-30 or hunting shotgun or all purpose flintlock.

Should you buy one from scratch for that purpose? I don't think so. Reliability and quality concerns, availability, and cost are huge issues. BCA tier uppers dominate the market because 350 is a cartridge for someone who shoots one deer a season at 25 yards. Nobody buys and trains by the case. Knights Armament doesn't make a 350, and it's for a reason.

People don't die when 350 uppers fail to feed.

 

[ECS686]

Sort of related (though no 350 Legend was around then) For those interested here is a chart Eric Gelhaus put out in his FB leg (Weic is a Gunsite Rangemaster and runs a Cougar Mountain Solutions

Although this chart predate HST and newer stuff they fall in line with some of the older JHP bonded or not they just retain weight a little better

Anyway just sharing lot smarter guy then me came up with this

 

[Max Volume]

I figure the furthest I would shoot in home defense is roughly 45' so an 870 12 ga with a short police barrel is on hand with
a handgun or two. There is a Bushmaster AR and a Colt AR in 5.56 that sit in the safe but when riots happened the Colt was handy. I built a 350 upper but never thought of it for self defense. Not that it wouldn't do the job. The Colt is set up better for a defensive
situation with it's accessories.

 

[gunrunner0]

I think a few people have touched on the possibility of feed issues. I've got a .350 that I hunt deer in Michigan with. Based on the deer I've shot with it, I think it would be a fine choice for home defense in terms of lethality. I would be somewhat concerned on the ammo you referenced feeding well, due to it's truncated shape. I hunt with Winchester 150gr hunting rounds that have a plastic ballistic tip, I've not had any issues in feeding with those. But I'd be nervous with a "flat" nosed bullet feeding reliably. I suppose that will largely come down to the barrel (feed ramps) you're using.

For what it's worth, I'm running a Wilson 18" barrel and CMMG mags. As stated above, it's been reliable. I'm also happy with it's accuracy.