45acp out? 10mm in?

[shibumiseeker]

Yeah, I've been told that Doubletap is unscrupulous, and the obvious reason for them loading bullets lighter than listed on the box is to get the velocity numbers where they claim they are.
At least the other three seem to have unblemished reputations, especially Kevin Underwood's company, which loads what they claim and whose velocity numbers are right in line with what independent people (tnoutdoors9 on YouTube, for one) have verified with their own chronographs.

DT is the only one I know of to have issues.

My biggest issue was if I am paying a buck or more a round for self defense ammo then I want it to work as intended. Montana Gold HPs are not designed for the 10mm velocity like the Gold Dot and will not be as effective by a lot. Compounding that is ignoring a customer complaint about a serious matter like that indicates either a company that is criminally negligent, or one that deliberately lies to their customers. Either way I won't do business with them.

 

[sliptap]

Have you looked into the .45 super cartridge? It is a little more exotic, but approaches 10MM power levels. It is the same shape of a .45 acp externally and I believe only requires minor mods if you aren't shooting too often (buffer pad, stronger recoil spring, etc.). https://www.underwoodammo.com/45-super/

If I had to choose either a G21 or G20 for personal or animal defense, I'd go with the G20 hands down though. You get extra capacity and (if loaded hot), the .45 isn't in the same league as 10mm as far as power/energy goes. Underwood's loadings hit 700+ ft lbs. lol. For plinking or those sensitive to recoil, the .45 is the better option.

 

[oldpink]

DT is the only one I know of to have issues.

My biggest issue was if I am paying a buck or more a round for self defense ammo then I want it to work as intended. Montana Gold HPs are not designed for the 10mm velocity like the Gold Dot and will not be as effective by a lot. Compounding that is ignoring a customer complaint about a serious matter like that indicates either a company that is criminally negligent, or one that deliberately lies to their customers. Either way I won't do business with them.

Montana Gold in a load intended for self-defense?
Wow, that's a whole new level of unscrupulous.
Plated bullets are perfectly okay for target shooting, but I don't know anyone who would ever advise them for social work.
Have to agree about the virtues of Gold Dot, too.
That's exactly what I went with when I ordered two boxes of Underwood .38 Special+P (125 grain Speer Gold Dot) and two boxes of Underwood 10mm Auto (165 grain Speer Gold Dot) for social work.
There is no doubt regarding the effectiveness of this bullet.

 

[Hohn]

I love 10mm so much. But I eventually had to realize that it is not a caliber one should have as a first or second caliber. The main reason I got away from it was that I don't reload and ammo availability was killling me. Locally, only american eagle and Armscore was available, and it was basically .40sw strength.
Underwood was $35/box for range ammo.

There is one aspect of 10mm that often gets overlooked that I think may support the small comeback it is making. 10mm is one of the few pistol calibers that is both 1)autoloader friendly (rebated rim) and 2) gains appreciably in ballistics in a carbine.

9mm and .45 see little to no ballistic gain after the barrel length exceeds handgun length. So all that extra barrel the law requires (up to 16") gets you almost nothing ballistically. Here are some muzzle energy vs barrel length graphs from Ballistics By the Inch. Note that the flatter the curves, the less gain there is to additional barrel length.


Here's 9mm: Tops out around 600lb ft in a Carbine:


Here's .45: It tops out around 800 lb ft in a carbine:


10mm is over 1000-lb feet in a carbine:




This guy gets over 1200 lb-feet out of a Mech Tech 10mm with Underwood: Note, this is almost 5.56 Nato muzzle energy in an AR, but with a much heavier bullet.
[video=youtube_share;GUyQ-E9aEnI]http://youtu.be/GUyQ-E9aEnI[/video]



The reason .357 and .44 gain so much in longer barrels is powder capacity: they have more, 9mm and .45 have less.

10mm is not a huge gain in powder capacity over .40, but it is enough to make a difference.


KRISS offering the Vector in 10mm is not an accident. 10mm perhaps the best autoloading pistol caliber carbine option.

 

[oldpink]

Great post, Hohn.
I'd reluctantly agree that 10mm is not a very good option for anyone without a reloading setup, except for the very well heeled.
With a reloading bench, it's one of the more productive rounds to put together.
btw...not to be overly nitpicky, but 10mm doesn't have a rebated rim.

 

[Hohn]

Yeah, I wasn't sure on the difference between merely being rimless or being rebated. And "rimless" is a total misnomer-- where would the extractor go on a "rimless" cartridge?

 

[oldpink]

Yeah, I wasn't sure on the difference between merely being rimless or being rebated. And "rimless" is a total misnomer-- where would the extractor go on a "rimless" cartridge?

It's obvious what they mean by not having a pronounced rim the way all standard revolver cartridges or the likes of .30-30 Winchester or .45-70 Govt. have, but the term is still a bit confusing for those new to guns.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

10mm is in now? Just yesterday (a couple threads down) it was on the out...

 

[oldpink]

10mm is in now? Just yesterday (a couple threads down) it was on the out...

Welcome to the shooting community, not just INGO.
It's normal everyday conversation among shooters everywhere to declare their favorite round on the rise and any rounds they dislike as on the way out.
Just look at all the decades that Colonel Charlie Askins pronounced the .30-06 Springfield as obsolete.
He's dead now, and the .30-06 is now past its first century and still leading the pack.

 

[in625shooter]

10mm is in now? Just yesterday (a couple threads down) it was on the out...

41 mag is still popular to some, especially out west and you can generally find more 10mm on the shelf than 41. Just 10mm is sort of a novelty. Will never be as much floating around as other calibers (aka 40)

 

[junk]

now if all you glock fan boys would switch to 1911's .

 

[creekside]

I understand that 10mm is probably a bit stronger and more accurate than .45acp but 10mm just isn't common enough for me. A friend of mine was trying to talk me into a 10mm handgun awhile back. I checked Walmart and they didn't carry 10mm rounds. I'd rather know the ammo is readily available.

 

[jamil]

I've kinda bought into the 10mm. I really enjoy shooting that round. Ammo is more expensive than 45 ACP but shooting "real" 10mm puts a smile on my face more than shooting 45 ACP does. My carry choice and home defense is 9mm, so I really have no other reason to want either 10mm or 45 ACP other than recreational shooting.

If you want to shoot a lot of 10mm, I'd say it's time to look into reloading. The more expensive and/or exotic a round, the more compelling the economics behind reloading your own.

I think cost is the most compelling reason not to choose 10mm over 45 ACP. So to pick 10mm, the reason has to overcome that. Also availability of guns and ammo is another consideration. I've never seen 10mm on the shelves at my local Walmart. And only a handful of firearms manufacturers have 10mm offerings, though that is getting better.

I don't reload. Just not the space right now. So I have to rely on waiting for deals and then stocking up. Cabela's had a really good deal for Black Friday on Sig brand 10mm, which is hot enough to make me smile.

But yeah, it would be much more affordable to shoot 10mm if I could reload. If I did, probably a longer portion of my range time would be spent shooting 10mm.

 

[Bobkunz]

I work as a range safety for the gun club public events in my area and I grade targets for them too. What I can tell you is I see new shooters picking up both and I see them doing better with the 10mm.

 

[gregr]

I do not see the 45acp ever going anywhere, it is burned into the American gun owners psyche for the most part. Most "non-gun" gun owners automatically equate the 45 with stopping power in a handgun, while the 10 is gaining in popularity unless it is adopted by the military or the FBI I do not see it coming anywhere near the 9mm and 45acp market share.

Bingo! I see .45 ammo as always being more readily available, for that reason.

 

[gregr]

now if all you glock fan boys would switch to 1911's .

Never happen. The Glock is more reliable and the double stack mags make the capacity too good.

 

[Spyco]

I've been tossing the idea of getting a 10mm for a while. The bonus power and mag size is nice, but is it worth the extra wear and tear on both the gun and the user? I do reload, but it's another caliber to keep track of. If I did go with a 10mm anything it would either be a 1911 in 10mm or a Gen4 G40 for the extra barrel. Maybe one day I'll make up my mind.

 

[Jeremy1066]

I've been tossing the idea of getting a 10mm for a while. The bonus power and mag size is nice, but is it worth the extra wear and tear on both the gun and the user? I do reload, but it's another caliber to keep track of. If I did go with a 10mm anything it would either be a 1911 in 10mm or a Gen4 G40 for the extra barrel. Maybe one day I'll make up my mind.

There won't be extra wear and tear on a 10mm blaster because they are buiit heavier to begin with. However, YMMV on the user issues. The only reason to shoot 10mm is if you are shooting real 10mm ammo (Underwood ammo is the only ammo I use, 165gr. Gold Dots are my favorite). If you plan to use shelf bought ammo like American Eagle or Blazer, you should just save your money and use a different caliber. Nobody shoots 10mm cause it's practical. We shoot it because we love it.

 

[Bobkunz]

Bingo! I see .45 ammo as always being more readily available, for that reason.

I agree with you there; but there is a reason 9MM became popular and is now part of the American psyche. I don't think 45ACP is going anywhere; but I see room being made for 10MM. Sooner or later something is going to phase out. The 9x18MM Makarov used to be extremely popular, now its an enthusiast munition. The same goes for 32ACP; once a popular round, now almost obsolete. I think the 10MM is the next big thing in LE/GOVT use. The key to its success will be the development of a weapon that is awarded a government contract of some kind. Im just not sure Glock has it quite yet.

 

[88E30M50]

The only reason that 10mm has not taken off is that CZ hasn't made a gun for it yet! Once they get around to correcting that oversight with a stainless 97B in 10mm, all other calibers will fade away and even the Glock guys will kneel at the alter of CZ.