7.7x58 Arisaka legal for deer hunting on private land this fall?

[Broom_jm]

Lots of purple font in the thread, but this probably is a gray area, so I get that.

Yeah, I carried a set of calipers with me when I was hunting with a couple of 35-caliber rounds, due to the headstamp. Several years ago I had a discussion with a CO about the Contender and Encore pistol cartridges that were legal, despite offering a lot more range than shotguns or muzzle-loaders. He said that the number of folks using those long pistols was small, and they tended to be experienced shooters/sportsmen, so the DNR just wasn't concerned about them posing any kind of risk. (Maybe I'll go out with 6.5JDJ or 44 Contender Carbine?)

With these new 24 and 30 caliber regulations, my suspicion is that CO's won't be worried about someone out there hunting with a 30 Carbine rifle (bad idea) or a Type 99 in 7.7x58. The number of folks doing either is going to be VERY small.

At some point, the insanity will stop and we'll get to use normal rifles and cartridges for deer hunting in Indiana. Until then, it's just navigating a very strange set of regulations. Remember when the 1.625" regs were in place and dozens of guys were hunting with full-length 460S&W rounds? Remember how confusing that was? I am not aware of a single person being prosecuted for using a 460S&W...and I can't begin to imagine someone being prosecuted for carrying a .312"x58 (7.7x58) when the .312"x54R (7.62x54R) and .312"x56.5 (303 British) are legal. I could be wrong, but I'm confident enough that I will almost certainly hunt with my old Type 99 this fall.

 

[kludge]

Maybe you could write an email to the DNR and ask? I did and they emailed me back, and I carried that email with me in the field.

 

[Broom_jm]

I should email the DNR for clarification...if they say no, I've got plenty of other guns to hunt with.

I bought 3 partial boxes (~75/ea) of three different 150gr .312" bullets to do some load development with in my 7.7x58, so I'll probably wring it out this winter to see what components I need to stock up on.

 

[Hookeye]

While the list in the DNR clarification is not a full list, it is .24 and .30 cal with the inclusion of 7.62 x54 and 7.62x39 (because some are .308).

The last two are special to the .24 and .30 rule (kinda how the 10mm auto didn't fit the old handgun spec, but now allowed).

I'm all for running the edge, but in this instance I'd call the 7.7 jap a no go.
Wouldn't even attempt it.

 

[Broom_jm]

While the list in the DNR clarification is not a full list, it is .24 and .30 cal with the inclusion of 7.62 x54 and 7.62x39 (because some are .308).

The last two are special to the .24 and .30 rule (kinda how the 10mm auto didn't fit the old handgun spec, but now allowed).

I'm all for running the edge, but in this instance I'd call the 7.7 jap a no go.
Wouldn't even attempt it.

What if I buy the correct expander, seat .308" bullets, and see if I can get one to rattle down the bore with some degree of accuracy?

What if I have a 7.62x54R or x39, but they shoot .311 or .312" cast lead boolits? Am I breaking the law, or am I good because they are named as "OK"?

What if I buy the 7.65x55 for sale in the classifieds and shoot that? It isn't on the list, but does shoot .308 bullets...is that one G2G?

What if Indiana has THE dumbest cartridge regulations in the history of deer hunting and there's no way in Helsinki they'd stand up in court?

Does anyone else see just how absurd these regs are, or why I created this thread?

 

[oldpink]

Some States simply list the diameter of the projectile, the muzzle energy requirement, center fire cartridges only, and stipulate that non-expanding projectiles are not allowed. Come to think of it, even pistols have the same type of requirements too. That makes a lot more sense to me than what Indiana is doing. Even archery has similar requirements with draw pull weight and broadhead width. I never heard of the case lenght as a restriction until I moved here. That was the deciding factor of why I didn't buy a 10mm. The 10mm is too short to be effective on deer??? Seriously? Are the people making these decisions appointed or elected?

FWIW, in case you haven't yet gotten the word, 10mm Auto (and because of how ambiguously it was when written, .40 S&W, believe it or not) is now legal for deer.

What if I buy the correct expander, seat .308" bullets, and see if I can get one to rattle down the bore with some degree of accuracy?

What if I have a 7.62x54R or x39, but they shoot .311 or .312" cast lead boolits? Am I breaking the law, or am I good because they are named as "OK"?

What if I buy the 7.65x55 for sale in the classifieds and shoot that? It isn't on the list, but does shoot .308 bullets...is that one G2G?

What if Indiana has THE dumbest cartridge regulations in the history of deer hunting and there's no way in Helsinki they'd stand up in court?

Does anyone else see just how absurd these regs are, or why I created this thread?

I'm guessing that you have some burning desire to use your Arisaka for deer, but why get all in a twist about it when you can get very reasonably priced $200-$300 range bolt actions the likes of the Savage Axis or Ruger American that will fire calibers legal right now without a smidgen of concern for the law as it is now (poorly) written instead?
Didn't you say upthread that you already have other centerfire rifles that would fit the legal requirements?
If not, why not just get a Ruger American in say .308, use it for the five season trial period, then when the trial period is a resounding success and the law gets predictably amended to allow everything from .243 all the way up to as big as you're willing to go, you can sell your American to someone who also wants to try for a deer, then finally take that Arisaka you're so eager to hunt with into the woods, nice and secure that you're at last fully legal?

 

[RMC]

FWIW, in case you haven't yet gotten the word, 10mm Auto (and because of how ambiguously it was when written, .40 S&W, believe it or not) is now legal for deer.

Thanks, I just saw something to that effect on Hook's post about an hour ago. Dang, now I wish I would have gotten that 10mm. Oh well, I'll just have to go shopping again. How is the law written now? Does it still go by case length?

 

[oldpink]

Thanks, I just saw something to that effect on Hook's post about an hour ago. Dang, now I wish I would have gotten that 10mm. Oh well, I'll just have to go shopping again. How is the law written now? Does it still go by case length?

Regarding 10mm, it makes no case length requirement as written, only that it have a .400 diameter bore, hence my allusion to it having been ambiguously written.
As for the centerfire rifle caliber newly legalized, there is a case length minimum requirement, which is 1.16", and the bore diameter can only be either .243 or .308.
No, it doesn't (yet, but it will come after this trial period ends) allow .270 Wincheste, 7mm Remington Magnum, or the like, but it's a huge step forward.

 

[Hookeye]

Handgun cartridges are by spec, but a special allowance was done for the 10mm auto (but written such that any .40 cal is legal).
HP rifle cartridges are also to a spec, but special allowance done for 7.62x54R and 7.62x39.

That's the way I view it.

Again, this law passed because it appears to have limits.

If you don't like the law or its progression, hunt someplace else. Be glad you got some new choices.

 

[Hookeye]

Handgun spec initially was min case 1.16" and .35 cal min.
After a few yrs they dropped the cal to .243 min.
10mm was legal back then............well the 10mm Magnum was

Now they have just written in an allowance for 10mm auto (but worded such that .40 S&W would also be legal).
Kinda flubbed that one.

See how many folks pop deer with .40 S&W. Handguns only account for 1% of the harvest.
Wonder how many newbs will run the "short and weak"..........how many deer they'll shoot before the recover one.

 

[oldpink]

Handgun cartridges are by spec, but a special allowance was done for the 10mm auto (but written such that any .40 cal is legal).
HP rifle cartridges are also to a spec, but special allowance done for 7.62x54R and 7.62x39.

That's the way I view it.

Again, this law passed because it appears to have limits.

If you don't like the law or its progression, hunt someplace else. Be glad you got some new choices.

Right on, and I will just add that I have to agree with some of the other posters who pointed out that the success of this trial period will be at least partially judged upon how well hunters obey it as written.
Do everything right, make DNR happy, prove all the Fudds wrong who are convinced that mayhem would ensure, and the law will get expanded to allow any caliber that anyone could reasonably ever want to hunt deer with.
Act like a jackass, deliberately skirt the law, or shoot up people's property due to poorly judged shot placement, and it could all get taken down.

 

[Hookeye]

See some folks buying 10mm autos for deer season.
Guys aint really shooters either.
Think they will be in for a rude awakening.

Alas, deer season brings out the weekend warriors.
I feel bad for the poor souls working in the gun shops the week before the opener.

 

[Hookeye]

FWIW I was content before HP rifles became legal.

 

[avboiler11]

I saw a deer killed in Kentucky about 15 years ago with a Sig P229 in 40SW.

Of course, some jackass coworker of my dad had shot the thing 6 (yes, six!) times with a 44 Mag revolver and paralyzed but failed to put the thing out of its misery - somebody else had to come administer the coup de grace.

And I had to be the one to field dress the poor, perforated 6 pointer because the jackass hunting with the 44 magnum was a novice and had no clue what he was doing.

Needless to say, that fool was banned from hunting my folks' place ever again.

 

[Hookeye]

Mr. .44 mag didn't have any more ammo to finish the job himself?
That's a fool right there.

Finishing off a half dead beast..........uh, damn near anything will work.
The relayed incident does not give the .40 S&W my vote of confidence.

 

[RMC]

I have no intentions of breaking any law and I really have no issues with the new rifle regulations other than they are confusing and vague. I hope folks use their heads when hunting so the calibers used can be less restrictive. Pushing the limits and/or wounding a lot of animals won't be an endorsement for hunting. Do you have a link so I can read up on the 10mm and other caliber information? I get lost everytime I try to find info on the .gov sites. TIA

 

[avboiler11]

It wasn't meant to give the caliber 'a vote of confidence', simply a tangentially-related chambering anecdote.

I for one think deer aren't hard to kill if you put a bullet where it is supposed to go...but that is easier to do with some types of weapons than others and a semi-auto in 40SW or even 10mm, while 'enough gun', is pretty damn marginal in the hands of MOST shooters.

I sure wouldn't feel comfortable making an ethical kill with either in handgun form; from a carbine would be another story, but for me it'd probably be limited to crossbow ranges, maybe a hair over depending on the system's accuracy.

 

[Hookeye]

If I had the coin for a long slide 10mm I'd use one.
50 yards and in.
Unfortunately with my eyes, it'd probably need a RMR on top.
Which kinda hurts the looks of the thing.
And yeah, it'd be a 1911. Or I wouldn't run a 10mm.

 

[RMC]

Mr. .44 mag didn't have any more ammo to finish the job himself?
That's a fool right there.

Finishing off a half dead beast..........uh, damn near anything will work.
The relayed incident does not give the .40 S&W my vote of confidence.

That reminds me of the time my wife and I were on our way home from night classes and she hit a buck with the car, breaking his front legs. I was in a suit and still managed to dispatch the animal with my Swiss Army knife. We went home, got my pickup and retrieved the animal with permission of the local law and game warden.

 

[Hookeye]

Deer aren't hard to kill IMHO.
But some of them hang onto the ghost more than others.
And killing things, and finding the things you kill............can be different.
A hole in and out is kind of a good thing.
Bigger holes are also nice.

Got no objection to lots of paint on the forest floor.

Actually think it kind of pretty.