80% lowers

[mrobison90]

Having an argument with a friend, they're saying 80% lowers are becoming illegal in Indiana, I thought the judge overturned that?

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Not sure what's happening with 80% lowers, but whatever is happening I'm 99% sure it has nothing to do with Indiana, but is happening and the federal level.

As far as what is happening at the federal level, I'm pretty sure it's a giant mess right now, and I don't think any of the proposed/supposedly now implemented(?) rules have been ruled on in court yet, but the rule the ATF came out with a couple months ago was supposed to make 80% lowers count as a finished lower, thus making them firearms, so not illegal, but illegal for a company to sell without doing an FFL transfer.

However, last I checked a couple days ago, it appears that some companies online are still selling 80% lowers without requiring an FFL transfer. I'm not sure if this means that my understanding of the situation is currently incorrect, or if it just means that these companies are basically telling the ATF that their stupid, vague rule is stupid and vague, so come after us in court if you want.

I'm surprised I haven't heard more about this, TBH.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

More Info:

For the nitty-gritty, see this link to the official text of the new rule https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...me-or-receiver-and-identification-of-firearms

The trouble with this rule is that it's frightfully vague. There's even some references in there to kits sold with the 80% for completing it, which seems to indicate that something can be a firearm or not based on whether or not it's sold with a jig. There's absolutely no clarity as to whether or not the various receiver blanks commonly called "80% receivers" are or are not covered by this new rule.

So far I have heard nothing either regarding the ATF actually taking action against companies selling 80% lowers, nor about this rule going to court. I'm going to do some more searching now, since this seems funny to me, now that I think about it.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Oh, and I just found this page that's still up on the ATF website from 2020: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-“80”-or-“unfinished”-receivers-illegal

That page says that a common AR-15 80% lower doesn't count as a firearm. I have no idea if this page is still up because they decided their stupid, vague rule doesn't apply to 80% AR lowers, or if it's because they're just incompetent fools who can't update their website.

 

[mrobison90]

Oh, and I just found this page that's still up on the ATF website from 2020: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/are-“80”-or-“unfinished”-receivers-illegal

That page says that a common AR-15 80% lower doesn't count as a firearm. I have no idea if this page is still up because they decided their stupid, vague rule doesn't apply to 80% AR lowers, or if it's because they're just incompetent fools who can't update their website.

What about completed lowers? Need to serialize?

 

[AndreusMaximus]

What about completed lowers? Need to serialize?

Nothing in the rules changed how individuals treat their own completed lowers, so if you manufactured it yourself, you don't need to serialize it, unless you are going to sell or give it to someone else (Edit: Apparently this is wrong. Thank you to those who corrected me on this!) I do believe, however, there was a rule change that required gunsmiths, etc, to serialize any ghost guns that they are taking into inventory or keeping overnight while doing work on, but I'm not sure of the details on this, so you'd probably have to check with someone who has an FFL, as they ought to know (Disclaimer: I am not a Lawyer, this is not legal advice; if you have doubts about anything consult someone more qualified.)

 

[BigRed]

atf makes it up as it goes.

Take an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the States.... spend a career doing all that can be done to shred it.

Scum of the scum.

 

[ditcherman]

Nothing in the rules changed how individuals treat their own completed lowers, so if you manufactured it yourself, you don't need to serialize it,

This.

unless you are going to sell or give it to someone else.

Nope. Been covered ad nauseam.

I do believe, however, there was a rule change that required gunsmiths, etc, to serialize any ghost guns that they are taking into inventory or keeping overnight while doing work on, but I'm not sure of the details on this, so you'd probably have to check with someone who has an FFL, as they ought to know (Disclaimer: I am not a Lawyer, this is not legal advice; if you have doubts about anything consult someone more qualified.)

 

[ditcherman]

Not sure what's happening with 80% lowers, but whatever is happening I'm 99% sure it has nothing to do with Indiana, but is happening and the federal level.

As far as what is happening at the federal level, I'm pretty sure it's a giant mess right now, and I don't think any of the proposed/supposedly now implemented(?) rules have been ruled on in court yet, but the rule the ATF came out with a couple months ago was supposed to make 80% lowers count as a finished lower, thus making them firearms, so not illegal, but illegal for a company to sell without doing an FFL transfer.

However, last I checked a couple days ago, it appears that some companies online are still selling 80% lowers without requiring an FFL transfer. I'm not sure if this means that my understanding of the situation is currently incorrect, or if it just means that these companies are basically telling the ATF that their stupid, vague rule is stupid and vague, so come after us in court if you want.

I'm surprised I haven't heard more about this, TBH.

The trouble started with “kits”. An 80 lower, with everything you needed to go along with it. IIRC it involves mostly pistol 80’s. “They” said that was like buying a complete gun.
Like someone wants to finish an 80 but can’t take the time to buy all the parts separately, I guess.

So, 80% are not affected by any rule change, as of yet, is my understanding.

To the OP’s statement of “I thought a judge overturned it”, overturned what? Do you have a link?

 

[MCgrease08]

This.

Nope. Been covered ad nauseam.

Thank you!

I really wish there were a way to stop the spread of the misconception that one has to serialize any firearm before selling it, or that you can't sell a homemade firearm. It's just simply not accurate.

I've posted the language in several of these threads covering what it means to be "in the business of manufacturing firearms."

 

[BigRed]

Thank you!

I really wish there were a way to stop the spread of the misconception that one has to serialize any firearm before selling it, or that you can't sell a homemade firearm. It's just simply not accurate.

I've posted the language in several of these threads covering what it means to be "in the business of manufacturing firearms."

It seems that matter of lowers often gets confused with the Indiana lifetime license going away.

Easy mistake.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Nope. Been covered ad nauseam.

Thank you!

I really wish there were a way to stop the spread of the misconception that one has to serialize any firearm before selling it, or that you can't sell a homemade firearm. It's just simply not accurate.

I've posted the language in several of these threads covering what it means to be "in the business of manufacturing firearms."

Looks like I understood wrongly; thanks for the correction!

So basically, is the requirement to serialize firearms similar to the requirement to have an FFL to sell firearms, which is to say: If you are selling firearms as a business, you need an FFL, but if it's just a personal sale now and then, no FFL needed; so, similarly: if you are manufacturing firearms as a business you need to serialize them, but if you decide to sell a firearm you made yourself, not as a business model but as a private sale now and then, you don't need to serialize it?

Edit: Upon a little bit of further research, it appears that it has more to do with the intent at the time of manufacture (or buying a firearm.) If you manufacture a gun with the intent to sell or give it to another, you need a license. If you manufacture a gun with the intent to keep and use it yourself, then later decide to sell or give it away, you don't need a license. Similarly, if you buy a gun with the intent to sell it to someone else, you need an FFL. But if you buy a gun for yourself, then later decide to sell it, you don't need an FFL.

 

[ditcherman]

It seems that matter of lowers often gets confused with the Indiana lifetime license going away.

Easy mistake.

Haha I was trying to work those exact words into my post but realized it just added to cunfusion/reduced clarity and was a tangent. Which I normally all for.

 

[BigRed]

Haha I was trying to work those exact words into my post but realized it just added to cunfusion/reduced clarity and was a tangent. Which I normally all for.

Tangents on INGO?

Say it ain't so!

 

[MCgrease08]

Edit: Upon a little bit of further research, it appears that it has more to do with the intent at the time of manufacture (or buying a firearm.) If you manufacture a gun with the intent to sell or give it to another, you need a license. If you manufacture a gun with the intent to keep and use it yourself, then later decide to sell or give it away, you don't need a license. Similarly, if you buy a gun with the intent to sell it to someone else, you need an FFL. But if you buy a gun for yourself, then later decide to sell it, you don't need an FFL.

I guess you could say intent plays into it to some degree, but what it boils down to is whether or not you're engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms.

One can absolutely build a gun with the intent to sell it to a friend. You just can't do that as part of a business of making and selling guns.

Can an individual now manufacture these firearms and sell them? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Any person "engaged in the business" as a manufacturer must obtain a license from ATF.  The term "engaged in the business" means— (A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with...

www.atf.gov

 

[ditcherman]

Looks like I understood wrongly; thanks for the correction!

So basically, is the requirement to serialize firearms similar to the requirement to have an FFL to sell firearms, which is to say: If you are selling firearms as a business, you need an FFL, but if it's just a personal sale now and then, no FFL needed; so, similarly: if you are manufacturing firearms as a business you need to serialize them, but if you decide to sell a firearm you made yourself, not as a business model but as a private sale now and then, you don't need to serialize it?

I believe that is basically correct. The real fuzzy language, probably on purpose, is the word occasional, or incidental sales, which atf chooses to interpret how they want on a case by case basis. The actual language they use IIRC is ‘made with the intent to sell (ETA for a profit)’
So if you build three in a year and sell them, and they come after you, you have to somehow prove that you didn’t build anything with the intent to sell.
Serialized is irrelevant, or at least a different conversation, IMO.

I don’t really worry about it because guns aren’t for selling. But I like to keep the truth rolling forward, and keep people from feeling like they have to roll over.

 

[BigRed]

If only the natural rights documented in the second amendment of the constitution of the States were respected...you know, as the States expected when the document was "ratified".

******* ********.

 

[ditcherman]

I guess you could say intent plays into it to some degree, but what it boils down to is whether or not you're engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms.

One can absolutely build a gun with the intent to sell it to a friend. You just can't do that as part of a business of making and selling guns.

Uh-oh. You’ve put me into the fudd camp, and you know I don’t want to be in the fudd camp.
I was sure it boiled down to ‘intent’?

Can an individual now manufacture these firearms and sell them? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Any person "engaged in the business" as a manufacturer must obtain a license from ATF.  The term "engaged in the business" means— (A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with...

www.atf.gov

 

[ditcherman]

If only the natural rights documented in the second amendment of the constitution of the States were respected...you know, as the States expected when the document was "ratified".

******* ********.

What would we have to talk about then?
Think of the asterisks, that would never get to live out their potential!

 

[mrobison90]

The trouble started with “kits”. An 80 lower, with everything you needed to go along with it. IIRC it involves mostly pistol 80’s. “They” said that was like buying a complete gun.
Like someone wants to finish an 80 but can’t take the time to buy all the parts separately, I guess.

So, 80% are not affected by any rule change, as of yet, is my understanding.

To the OP’s statement of “I thought a judge overturned it”, overturned what? Do you have a link?

Judge bars enforcement of Delaware 'ghost gun' restrictions

DOVER, Del. (AP) — A federal judge has issued an injunction barring Delaware from enforcing provisions of a new law outlawing the manufacture and possession of homemade “ghost guns,” which can’t be traced by law enforcement officials because they don’t have serial numbers.

apnews.com

All I can find while driving