AARs: ACT Defensive Pistol 205 Low Light Techniques

[downrange72]

I have gotten a full report. There are few things l like more than kicking someone while they are down, but I have soften up quite a bit with old age. Rhino would not have lived through my 20's with an incident like this.

There is pressure to perform perfectly in a situation like that, but it has to be blocked out. It is humbling when you jack up. But HTFU and move on...

Agreed...I sincerely think that it made me (can't speak for the rest of the class) slow down and make the shots.

I thinl Rhino will recover just fine.

 

[rhino]

I'm recovered. There won't be any HTFUing, though. That's too much work and discomfort.

We need to schedule another class soon so I can do more demos, right. April seems like a long way away right now.

If we have the demand, maybe we can try to schedule another low light class when the weather is a little better, but it still gets dark at a reasonable time. In addition, I expect that we'll do some low light scenarios with our next force on force class, but that can be done inside.

 

[HICKMAN]

I expect that we'll do some low light scenarios with our next force on force class, but that can be done inside.

oh hellz yeah!

 

[esrice]

2 Glocks Fail, oh my!

As those who were in the class can attest, I had quite the time with malfunctions during the various strings of fire. Strangely, those malfunctions continued across 2 different Glocks.

For those reading who were not able to join us, I will fill you in on the issues I was having.

Starting with the very first few rounds we fired, my Glock 19 (loaded with 115gr Precision Cartridge ammo in Glock factory mags) failed to go fully into battery. Being on the line, I did not take the time to sit and diagnose my problem. I simply cleared the malfunction and pushed ahead. This is especially challenging when its 20 degrees outside, you're wearing gloves, and you're trying to simultaneously hold a flashlight and make hits (shooting one handed) on steel 7 yards in front of you, all while moving. But, we're there to shoot defensively, so I pushed on as if it were a real situation. Then it happened again. And again. And again.

At this point it became more than just an annoyance. John (obijohn) took note of my frustration and offered his assistance.

First we wondered if my gloves were the culprit, perhaps getting snagged and retarding slide movement. Took off the gloves, more malfs.

Then we wondered if I was unintentionally hitting the extended slide stop, so I decide to switch guns. I gave John my G19, and began using lovemywoods' backup G19. More malfs.

We then considered bad/weak magazines. I dumped all of mine and switched to using lovemywoods' backup mags. More malfs.

In the meantime, John had taken my G19 back inside the clubhouse to see if he could tear it down and find something obviously amiss. Nothing. He test fired it using his own magazine and his own Precision Cartridge ammo and it ran like a top.

At this point I was like .

So I finished out the class glove-less with lovemywoods' G19, his mags, and the same ammo I had been shooting throughout. Even to the very last drill, I'm standing in a mock hallway trying to shoot a guy holding a banana while I tap-rack-bang the crap out of the gun.

Although frustrated, I was thankful to get the malf clearing practice in.

So on the way home I surmised two possibilities-- neither of which made me feel all fuzzy inside. It had to be one of two constants.

1. My ammo was "bad". Or. . .
2. My technique was bad and my gun was falling prey to "limp wristing".

If the ammo was bad, then I wasn't too thrilled knowing that we had another 1,200 rounds of it sitting in the back of the truck.

If my G19 was technique-picky and wouldn't run under sub-optimal conditions, then I could no longer trust it to fill the slot as a life-saving device.

Not content to let the issue go unsettled for long, I headed down to Brown County early this morning before work to get things ironed out.

When we first suspected ammo, several of the class participants suggested checking the overall cartridge length. We did that, and didn't find the difference (compared to factory ammo) to be indicative of an obvious problem.

lovemywoods was kind enough to also assist me in running my Glock 19 (and providing the ammo ) through the same conditions as it was run on Saturday night. We attempted to duplicate the circumstances as similarly as possible.

Here was the setup:

• Same shooter (me)
• Same Glock 19 (mine), using the same 3 original magazines from the class
• Same Precision Cartridge 115gr 9mm ammo from the same box used in class
• Same single steel target set at the same distance
• Same carry rig concealed under the same INGO jacket
• Same temperature - 17 degrees (brrr!), and the gun/ammo/mags were left outside to acclimate to outside temps
• Same shooting technique-- single-handed drawing and shooting while support hand is in "jaw index" position

Our first goal was to try and recreate the malfunction so we could see exactly what was happening. That was no problem, as I experienced 6 malfs in the very first magazine.

First malf was on round #3, failure to feed.

Second malf was on round #8, failure to feed (offset).

Third malf was on round #10, classic stovepipe.

Fourth malf was on round #12, another stovepipe.

Fifth malf was on round #13, another failure to feed.

Sixth malf was when the slide failed to lock back on an empty magazine.

Having successfully recreated and identified the malfunctions, we moved on to the other brands of factory ammo.

If they ran just as poorly, then I would be convinced that my Glock was technique-picky, and that I would have to move away from my beloved Glock platform. I may be a fanboy, but I won't run something that won't work under adverse conditions.

First up was a full 15rd magazine of 115gr Winchester White Box. It ran 100% with no hiccups, all the way to slidelock.

Next was a mag of 115gr S&B. No issues.

Then on to American Eagle (Federal) 124gr. Not a single hitch.

I even ran a magazine of newbie reloader lovemywoods' home-brewed 9mm without incident.

With those results, I feel very confident in calling my malfunctions a direct result of "bad" ammunition. But what kind of "bad?

I noticed several things that lead me to believe that the powder used does not impart enough energy to fully retract the slide.

First, when shooting the factory ammo, I noticed a much "crisper" audible report from the rounds. The PC ammo also produced less felt-recoil, as I could tell a difference in how far my sights would move off-target before settling back.

Ejection was also affected. In the picture below you will see my firing position (yellow), the area where the factory brass landed (blue), and where the PC brass landed (red). As you can see, even when the PC brass would eject, it would simply tumble out and land at my feet.

Finally, when the slide would not lock back on an empty magazine, we wondered if the slide wasn't even moving far enough back to catch the slide stop.

I also believe that this condition is worse in the colder temps, as we have previously run PC ammo during the summer months without issue (in a class even).

After finding these results I made a call to my Precision Cartridge distributor, as I knew he would want to hear the feedback.

He apologized and explained to me that Precision Cartridge is aware of a bad batch of powder that went out over this past summer, which is when this lot of ammo was purchased. He said that due to PC's inability (for a short time) to chrono outgoing lots, they made it past QC when they should not have. They found the powder to be on the far lean side of acceptable, and that others had reported similar issues during non-standard conditions. He assured me that current lots are back up to spec.

lovemywoods and I decided to hold on to the remaining PC ammo, and will try using it again in warmer weather, and just for our own practice.

A few final learning points:

• Redundancy is good. But don't just bring extra rounds to class, bring extra of another brand of ammo.
• Test all of your gear, ESPECIALLY if you are using it in a defensive role. Carry ammo is expensive, but you need to check that too.
• Glocks are still awesome.

So, there you have it!

 

[lovemachine]

WOW! I'm glad you got it figured out Evan! I'm even more glad you'll still continue to be a Glock FanBoy!

 

[Josh Ward]

Glad you got it sorted out Evan.

This makes multiple times I've heard of less than stellar results from Precision Cartridge.....

 

[rhino]

esrice ...well done, sir. It's almost like you had a Rose-Hulman engineer assisting you or something!

BigCraig had problems with a case of Precision Cartridge 9mm earlier this year with his Glock 17 during one of our league shoots. From what he told me, the ammo works okay in Coach's M&P9, though.

 

[Fenway]

That post deserves it's own thread Evan!

 

[shooter521]

Great report, Evan. Had me on the edge of my seat waiting to read what the problem was!

 

[esrice]

Had me on the edge of my seat waiting to read what the problem was!

Thought you might enjoy the theatrics! That, and the use of the word "surmise".

 

[HICKMAN]

Glad you got it sorted out Evan.

This makes multiple times I've heard of less than stellar results from Precision Cartridge.....

yup

knew it as soon as I saw the boxes.

 

[downrange72]

esrice ...well done, sir. It's almost like you had a Rose-Hulman engineer assisting you or something!

BigCraig had problems with a case of Precision Cartridge 9mm earlier this year with his Glock 17 during one of our league shoots. From what he told me, the ammo works okay in Coach's M&P9, though.

I just sent him that in a PM. I had 3000 rounds over the summer without any hiccups. I did catch that one round was loaded backwards, but 2999 rounds went downrange. I also shot up the last 80 of my Precision rounds Saturday night.

 

[hschmidt]

Great you figured it out

Evan

It is great to see you found out the root cause of the problem.. Next time feel free to ask around for some factory ammo, i had plenty and i am sure other had too, and you could have had a mystery to solve later and more fun on the range.. I really felt bad for you when you were running back and forth trying to get the gun to work - even if it was a great TRB exercise.

hope to see you again - and if you hear of other great trainings let me know - but, so far i have only done ACT and been very happy with them.

br

henrik

 

[ATM]

...A few final learning points:

• Redundancy is good. But don't just bring extra rounds to class, bring extra of another brand of ammo.
• Don't just bring extra rounds to class, bring extra of another brand of ammo.
• Bring extra rounds of another brand of ammo.
• Redundancy is good.

Gotcha!

 

[rhino]

I am considering adding another middle name to my list of middle names: Redundanator.

I'm all about redundancy. It's save me from significant grief on many occasions.

 

[samrothstein01]

Since you mentioned it, could you share with us some of the items with which you not agree? We're all still learning here and maybe your input will expose me (us) to a different perspective.

Yes, I will certainly share, just not at the moment.

Sorry for the delay, but I have been swamped with other items and haven't spent much time on INGO. I will take some time to do a write up this weekend.

Thought you might enjoy the theatrics! That, and the use of the word "surmise".

esrice, that was a fantastic review and thorough, methodical test. Nice work. (Out of rep for you though).

The theatrics were nice, but "surmise", really??

 

[samrothstein01]

Thanks for the excellent review!

Since you mentioned it, could you share with us some of the items with which you not agree? We're all still learning here and maybe your input will expose me (us) to a different perspective.

Yes, I will certainly share, just not at the moment.

Sorry for the delay, but I have been swamped with other items and haven't spent much time on INGO. I will take some time to do a write up this weekend.

Sorry for the delay Rhino. I told you I would, so better late than never! Unfortunately I have been tied up a lot lately.




At this point however, I wish I had taken good notes to recall everything I was speaking of. I remember sitting in the building prior to hitting the range and thinking "I'm not sure I entirely agree with that" and/or "Disregard that statement, it doesn't apply to you". I think it is important that eveyone goes into a training opportunity with some goals and objectives, knowing clearly what intent and purpose it "should" serve towards the overall goal of making yourself a better X. Whatever your X is, it will not apply to everyone, nor will the entire cirriculum within the training. Additionally, you may pick up some items that you didn't intend or know should be part of your X. So, you take the bits and pieces and chunks that fit, and apply them accordingly.

A couple of examples that I do recall:

1.) I thought the theory of assessement was downplayed to the point it almost felt as if it was ridculed. I personally believe this is a critical component to both pre and post "bang". It appeared it was dismissed, which is completely fine, we certainly don't have to agree.

2.) The emphasis on movement during mag changes/malfunction was random. Move to where? Why? I understand the theory that a moving target is harder to hit, so stay in motion. But I have two issues with this, one is fundamental, and one is course specific. This course was dedicated to low light fundamentals. People (including myself) where struggling enough trying to manipulate weapons and lights simultaneously, then throw in movement? Why not focus on the skill that was to be taught? If folks are already trained to throw in movement, then sure, go ahead and continue your existing regimens and add the "light" mastery to the back end of your existing skill level, therefore increasing overall skill and supplementing/complimenting it. But throwing in movement randomly took away from the focus on mastering the other manipulation techniques. So while I might have benefited a little from both, I did not benefit a lot from either one. I would have preferred to benefit greatly from the light manipulation, and focus on movement in another class to add to the repetoire. Addtionally, movement is very difficult on a packed line with a 180 degree range.

Now, fundamentally, why would I move? Moving 6" to the left and then 2 feet to the right really doesn't do much for reducing my target profile. If i am going to move, there needs to be an objective. I should be moving towards cover, moving toward/away from the target. Otherwise, it may behoove me to take the ~1.5 seconds it takes to jam a fresh mag, and get back on target than worrying about moving. Obviously, movement is important, but so is the lack of movement, and most important of all, is the purpose of the movement. Each movement/step should be calculated and have purpose, otherwise you are just simply adding complication to the process for the sake of complication.

3.) I thought there wasn't enough focus on the actual light and variations. And while I agree one should carry a handheld along with a weapon light, I thought the mounted weapon light was dismissed as a viable option. I agree that a mounted weapon light should not be used as a flashlight purely for the purposes of illumnation, because now you are muzzle sweeping some unsuspecting person/place/thing. However, if my weapon is drawn with the intent/belief it will need to be used, why not use the light mounted to illuminate the target rather than fumble with the handheld light?

4.) Lastly, light discipline. The last drill of the evening for me I asked the question of why keep toggling the light on/off, and it was indicated light discipline. I just simply cannot understand how a light going constantly on/off is any better than constantly on. While I agree light discipline is absolutely necessary, I believe the discipline should require off unless needed. That was a fantastic drill, but shining the light while maneuvering through the barrels was completely unnecessary. Shining it once a potential target was identified to see if they were a threat or not was the only time a light should have been used. If that was the intent, I apologize, I just didn't see anyone being coached along those lines.

I hope that helps answer some of your question. I thougth the course was great, and it certainly gave me some items to add to my training routines, which was the objective. I will be back again!

Thank you!

 

[jason]

4.) Lastly, light discipline. The last drill of the evening for me I asked the question of why keep toggling the light on/off, and it was indicated light discipline. I just simply cannot understand how a light going constantly on/off is any better than constantly on. While I agree light discipline is absolutely necessary, I believe the discipline should require off unless needed. That was a fantastic drill, but shining the light while maneuvering through the barrels was completely unnecessary. Shining it once a potential target was identified to see if they were a threat or not was the only time a light should have been used. If that was the intent, I apologize, I just didn't see anyone being coached along those lines.

I hope that helps answer some of your question. I thougth the course was great, and it certainly gave me some items to add to my training routines, which was the objective. I will be back again!

Thank you!

In the "house" drill, I used my light in short bursts while navigating through the hallway. I didn't know where the targets were and I needed the light to navigate my way. Doing short bursts of light, to my thinking, would give the supposed bad guys less information to work with regarding my location than keeping the light on the entire time. That's my theory at least. If you didn't need it then you're right, why use it?

Another thing I observed was during the figure-8 drill I saw about half of the students shooting before me move from cover to cover with the light illuminated. If the aspect of light discipline is important, then why would you want to keep yourself lit while moving? If I am in total or near-total darkness, why would I not use it to my advantage and use the darkness to help conceal my movements?

One thing I think should have been done during the range time, and at least introduced during the lecture portion, was some kind of basic low light tactics/techniques/drills, e.g.: Light on, ID the target, shoot, light off, move. I think a simple drill like that would reinforce the basic principles we are looking to learn.

 

[rhino]

First, thanks for the thoughtful commentary. I will reply below as best I can. From my first read through your comments, I suspect I was unclear on some of the points.

1.) I thought the theory of assessement was downplayed to the point it almost felt as if it was ridculed. I personally believe this is a critical component to both pre and post "bang". It appeared it was dismissed, which is completely fine, we certainly don't have to agree.

What do you mean by "assessment"? From the context, I gather you refer to what I've been taught to refer to as a "threat scan." If I'm wrong, please disregard.

I'm at a loss at how what I said could have been interpreted as ridiculing the idea of threat scans. If you're referring to the idea of standing in one place and slowly looking over each shoulder or the classic "waggle" of the gun at targets as a gesture implying a genuine scan for threats, then I see where you might get that idea.

Scanning for threats is indeed an integral component of any such situtation or something that appears to be. Why didn't I spend more time on it? Because we only had four hours total and half of the people in the room were not our defensive students and I had no idea how they choose to conduct such scans. I specifically mentioned it during the brief lecture in class because I wanted to remind people that it's something they need to do (learn to do), but it's their choice if they wanted to do it or not. I also believe and will do so until someone convinces me otherwise that standing still and slowly peeking over each shoulder is pointless, as is the show of waving one's gun at a few targets to imply that you're really truly looking and seeing.

Another issue, is how do you do it in the dark with lights with 9 people on the line all at the same time? One at a time, not a big problem. With 9, there are logistics issues, especially when the class is diverse in background.

To reiterate, threat scans are in integral part of our defensive curriculum. If anything to contrary was perceived, then I apologize for any lack of clarity.

2.) The emphasis on movement during mag changes/malfunction was random. Move to where? Why? I understand the theory that a moving target is harder to hit, so stay in motion. But I have two issues with this, one is fundamental, and one is course specific. This course was dedicated to low light fundamentals. People (including myself) where struggling enough trying to manipulate weapons and lights simultaneously, then throw in movement? Why not focus on the skill that was to be taught? If folks are already trained to throw in movement, then sure, go ahead and continue your existing regimens and add the "light" mastery to the back end of your existing skill level, therefore increasing overall skill and supplementing/complimenting it. But throwing in movement randomly took away from the focus on mastering the other manipulation techniques. So while I might have benefited a little from both, I did not benefit a lot from either one. I would have preferred to benefit greatly from the light manipulation, and focus on movement in another class to add to the repetoire. Addtionally, movement is very difficult on a packed line with a 180 degree range.

Now, fundamentally, why would I move? Moving 6" to the left and then 2 feet to the right really doesn't do much for reducing my target profile. If i am going to move, there needs to be an objective. I should be moving towards cover, moving toward/away from the target. Otherwise, it may behoove me to take the ~1.5 seconds it takes to jam a fresh mag, and get back on target than worrying about moving. Obviously, movement is important, but so is the lack of movement, and most important of all, is the purpose of the movement. Each movement/step should be calculated and have purpose, otherwise you are just simply adding complication to the process for the sake of complication.

Again, I'm unclear on why you thought it was random. Movement is also an integral part of our curriculum. I fully understand the problems with moving in unison with a tightly packed group. I've been a student in the class plenty, and in many of those we've been packed significantly closer. Will small movement make a difference? Maybe, maybe not and it reality any movement is better than none especially as close ranges, but that detail is beside the point. Whether it was clear to you or not, the movement is part of the big picture and it's something I want my students to learn how to do even when they're using a flashlight. In fact, small movements probably make even more difference when it's really dark (which we did not have on the range with the steel) when you use your light in one place, estinguish it, then move. Bright lights make people blink at the very least. When you blink, your brain expects to see the same thing it did before you closed your eyes. Even a step can make a difference in my opinion.

3.) I thought there wasn't enough focus on the actual light and variations. And while I agree one should carry a handheld along with a weapon light, I thought the mounted weapon light was dismissed as a viable option. I agree that a mounted weapon light should not be used as a flashlight purely for the purposes of illumnation, because now you are muzzle sweeping some unsuspecting person/place/thing. However, if my weapon is drawn with the intent/belief it will need to be used, why not use the light mounted to illuminate the target rather than fumble with the handheld light?

Not enough time to spend on discussing light. We spend a significant amount of time discussing lights and features in the 8 hours class.

Again, I don't understand why you think I dismissed weapon mounted lights as an option. The only thing I dismiss is the use of solely a weapon mounted light because unless you have a quickly detachable, you can't use the light independent from the gun. I thought I was clear on that, which is one of the reason I mentioned the scenario where you need to hold your light extended over your head or to the side in order to see what you need to see. I can't shoot with my gun held over my head that way, although I'm sure some people are willing to do it. There are other examples of when being able to use the light independently of the weapon is a good idea or the only option. That's why I believe it's essential to have a handheld light whether you have a weapon mounted light or not.

I never said nor did I imply that someone shouldn't use the weapon mounted light for actually shooting. If you're acutally shooting and it's providing the light you need to see what you need to see, it's the way to go. The reason I didn't spend significant time talking about it or drilling it is because shooting with a light on your gun is pretty much the same as shooting without a light on your gun, except you have a light on the gun. It's a lot harder to shoot one handed with a handheld light, which is what we choose as our focus.

4.) Lastly, light discipline. The last drill of the evening for me I asked the question of why keep toggling the light on/off, and it was indicated light discipline. I just simply cannot understand how a light going constantly on/off is any better than constantly on. While I agree light discipline is absolutely necessary, I believe the discipline should require off unless needed. That was a fantastic drill, but shining the light while maneuvering through the barrels was completely unnecessary. Shining it once a potential target was identified to see if they were a threat or not was the only time a light should have been used. If that was the intent, I apologize, I just didn't see anyone being coached along those lines.

Did I say that to you, or did someone else? The idea is that you use your light, then you move (if it's possible). The "target" for someone who sees you is ostensibly where they saw your light flash, which not where you are when they decide to go there or shoot there. Is it always going to work that way? Maybe not.

You are, however, in full agreement with me on this issue: if you don't need the light to see to navigate, don't use it. I think using the least amount of artificial light that you can (unless your intent is to distract with the light itself) is usually a good idea. That's why I have tritium filled capsules on the sights on my carry guns. There are plenty of lighting situations where I can see well enough without a light to positively identify a threat/nonthreat, but I need help seeing the sights.

I think I mentioned the phrase "see what you need to see" (which is borrowed from Brian Enos' philosophy of using sights), which is part of that. If you don't need light, don't use it. I don't know if you noticed, but some people who had night sights or lasers shot the drill on the plates (before we moved to the other bays) without their lights at all because they didn't need them to see the targets. Nothing wrong with that.

Believe or not, people's ability to see in dim light varies considerably and there were people in that class who probably needed brief flashes to confirm what they saw when they were moving. Several students, in fact, walked past the first (and some the second) opening in the "hallway" without even noticing it was there. Part of that may have been fatigue or something else, but some of them just didn't see it because they were not taking peeks with their lights. I purposely gave minimal instructions on that drills because I wanted people to learn by doing it. Those who missed that "doorway" probably won't be as likely to do it again.

Another issue is that regardless of your level of visual accuity in dim light, the older you get, the longer it takes for the chemical reactions to occur that allow you acclimate to the low light. A couple of flashes of light occasionally can significantly slow that process as well. I know that when I was moving through the barrels to reset threats and nonthreats, I needed to use my light some times because I literally couldn't see where I was going.

Whew! I hope that my responses will increase our mutual understanding. Again, thank you very much for the comments and questions. They are welcome and very helpful.

 

[rhino]

One thing I think should have been done during the range time, and at least introduced during the lecture portion, was some kind of basic low light tactics/techniques/drills, e.g.: Light on, ID the target, shoot, light off, move. I think a simple drill like that would reinforce the basic principles we are looking to learn.

You're right and I was thinking the same thing when I had the chance to watch some of the students in the figure 8 drill. I will definitely do a better job of making that point next time (and in fact it was already in my notes to do so before I read your message).

THANKS!