Accidental Discharge when OC/CC?

[esrice]

I don't care if your firearm has zero safeties or twenty. The true safety, as already stated, is the one between your ears.

+1

How many safeties does a baseball bat have?

 

[Beau]

 

[kingnereli]

Man, I spend a day at the range and this thread takes off. I want to hit some of the high points.

I think everyone agrees that safety is a mindset/training issue. That isn't in dispute.

In the real world of lethal force encounters, it may also be the split second delay that gets you shot. I need NO extra step between drawing my weapon and employing deadly force. I'll continue to worry more about whether my gun will go off when I want it to.

Deactivating a thumb safety adds no time to the draw whatsoever. There is no extra step. If I intend to fire from the holster the safety comes off when my hand touches the gun. Again, it is about training. However, it is inaccurate to say that a gun without a safety has a speed advantage.

...if you can show me stats that prove that safety-less handguns have NO more incidents (as in ZERO) of ADs,...

I asked for stats as well. it looks like this thread is going to be all opinion.

Stop building straw men.

I see a steady diet of straw man arguments when this topic comes up. There is the "false sense of security in a mechanical device" comment, the "complicated manual of arms" comment, the ever present "the safety is between your ears comment." You can see all these and more in this thread already. It detracts from the real issue, but I guess we're going to have to get used to it.

This is also not true. Although Glocks do not have manual safeties, they have 3 passive safeties. This means that a round is fired only after a deliberate pull of the trigger to the rear.

I like comparing this to putting the brake pedal on the gas pedal, but that is probably a straw man argument as well.

Crowding a gun with internal locks and manual safeties complicates the weapon and could potentially make it more difficult to deploy effectively against an attacker in a stressful situation. That is not to say that you cannot train yourself to utilize a handgun with a manual safety (many have), just that it is a more complex manual of arms.

Is a manual safety really all that complicated? Sure, it is marginally more complicated then an internal safety but about this much - . A grip safety deactivates when you hold the thing. A thumb safety is a little lever with about a quarter inch of movement. My blender is more complicated.

Gotcha . "Light-triggered" I can understand. "Single-action" they (Glocks, XDs, M&Ps) are not.

XDs are a true single action. The striker is fully cocked with a rack of the slide. The trigger only releases it.

if these professionals can't keep their finger off of the trigger while holstering, or pay attention to what they are doing, what makes you think that having a manual safety that they would first have to remember to engage make a difference?

There are no guarantees. It is just another layer of safety between you (or me) and a bad day.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Alternatively, if you can show me stats that prove that safety-less handguns have NO more incidents (as in ZERO) of ADs, then I will re-consider my opinion (an NO, Glock marketing hype does not count).

As I offered before, if you can show me stats that prove that safety-less handguns have NO more incidents (as in ZERO) of ADs, then I will re-consider my opinion (an NO, Glock marketing hype does not count).

Your the one stating its less safe. Do you have any stats that prove it? If so I will re-consider my opinion.

 

[NIFT]

I was with both the Allen County Sheriff's SWAT commander and his chief firearms instructor not too long ago, and I asked him about their use of gun safeties. He held up his index finger, wiggled it a little, and said, "That is our safety." The chief firearms instructor nodded his head in agreement. Their guns are always loaded, chambered, and any safeties off, with the trigger finger outside the trigger guard and alongside the frame.

For many people, especially new shooters I have for students, keeping the finger off the trigger and alongside the frame is very hard, especially after firing one or more shots. There is a natural tendency, when grasping a firearm, to put the index finger on the trigger. It takes concerted practice to alter that tendency.

Only grossly defective guns can discharge without the trigger being pulled, and such guns should either be repaired or destroyed.

Many negligent discharges happen when re-holstering a handgun with the finger on the trigger. Safeties are fine, as far as they go, but they don't prevent negligent discharges. Your trigger finger is the number one safety!

Keep that finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you are going to shoot. After shooting, get that finger off the trigger and back alongside the frame! Do those two things and you have zero chance of a negligent discharge.

Bob Aldridge, NRA Certified Firearms Instructor and Range Safety Officer
260-459-2382

 

[Agent 007]

I was with both the Allen County Sheriff's SWAT commander and his chief firearms instructor not too long ago, and I asked him about their use of gun safeties. He held up his index finger, wiggled it a little, and said, "That is our safety." The chief firearms instructor nodded his head in agreement. Their guns are always loaded, chambered, and any safeties off, with the trigger finger outside the trigger guard and alongside the frame.

For many people, especially new shooters I have for students, keeping the finger off the trigger and alongside the frame is very hard, especially after firing one or more shots. There is a natural tendency, when grasping a firearm, to put the index finger on the trigger. It takes concerted practice to alter that tendency.

Only grossly defective guns can discharge without the trigger being pulled, and such guns should either be repaired or destroyed.

Many negligent discharges happen when re-holstering a handgun with the finger on the trigger. Safeties are fine, as far as they go, but they don't prevent negligent discharges. Your trigger finger is the number one safety!

Keep that finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you are going to shoot. After shooting, get that finger off the trigger and back alongside the frame! Do those two things and you have zero chance of a negligent discharge.

Bob Aldridge, NRA Certified Firearms Instructor and Range Safety Officer
260-459-2382

There you have it, folks.

 

[Agent 007]

Oh yes, I can now see how my stock 1943 Remington-Rand 1911A1 is so much trendier than your Glock. Forgive my obvious error.

So, YOUR honest opinion is that a 1943 GI issue 1911A1 is TRENDIER than a Glock? Wow. I hadn't heard that one before.

Actually, I hadn't even considered the notion that someone who is so hell bent to prove that their pistol is safer than other designs would carry an antique pistol with no firing pin safety. I had incorrectly assumed that you'd be talking about a safer, more modern 1911 pistol.

Sorry about my incorrect assumption. No, your old warhorse isn't trendy. My Glock isn't trendy, either, but at least it's drop safe. Personally, I'm unwilling to take the risk inherent in carrying a pistol that may fire when dropped, potentially killing or maiming a small child. I can keep the trigger guard clear when handling and holstering my gun. I can't control what it does if dropped.

Your fantasy lawyer would have a field day with you in court. You intentionally chose to carry an UNSAFE antique pistol WITHOUT a firing pin safety, instead of a modern pistol with multiple internal safeties?

Yeah...it works both ways.

 

[NWI40cal]

Even my drivers manual says it. Most auto collisions are not (officially) called accidents, because "accident" says there was no negligence on the part(s) of the operators of the vehicle.

The same is true with a sidearm. If you "accidently" pulled the trigger, you still pulled it. It was "accidently" not pointed in a safe direction, again your bad. Even if the Glock/XD/whatever trigger got caught on your shirt just right, and went off, your fault for not checking for a clear holster. It's all just the same as "I hit the gas instead of the brake" It was negligence, you didn't pay enough attention.

That being said, I have had an ND, and almost took out my kidney.. or liver, whichever is on the left side. I have an XD, I was explaining to my friend how to break it down, and forgot to remove the mag first. I carried it empty at the time, (I had a gun for like 2 weeks,) allowing to rack one in after I flipped up the lever. Pull the trigger, muzzle pointing somewhat toward me, and to my left. All said and done, I ruined my beer delivery guy hoodie, 2 shirts and a wifebeater. I had 2 holes in a skin tight wifebeater, and none in me. Talk about Negligence, and luck.

Been double, triple and quad checking since, I don't want it to happen again, so I won't let it.

 

[NIFT]

There you have it, folks.

Thanks--much appreciated!

 

[Smitty506th]

No such thing as an AD only ND

 

[Indy317]

However, it is inaccurate to say that a gun without a safety has a speed advantage.

I carried an HK USP compact for a few years. I never had the safety on, because I carried the pistol on the job with the safety off. With my 10+ years of training via Glock style shooting, I am not sure I would feel comfortable having a safety on, as I never trained to flip it when I pull the gun (I have carried a Glock 22 the last five or so years now). Now, there were a few times I forgot my holster when I had the HK, and I would flip the switch then. It may or may not have been an issue, but since I didn't train with a safety on, it likely would have been a speed disadvantage to _me_. I would never carry a Glock without a holster, that is for sure.

In the end, I think people who _have_ to have a safety are funny, but I understand that some people just have a different security level than me. Like I said before, I have carried a Glock 22 for the last five years. I pretty much carry it everywhere, at work and off-duty. I have never had an ND and won't ever have an ND.

The way some people talk about Glocks, I should have already shot myself in the leg a few times and had the G22 blow up in my hand a few times as well!!

 

[Beau]

No such thing as an AD only ND

I disagree. I think mechanical failure would qualify as an AD. Or just some freak thing. For instance, a guy I talk to from another site was working on his pistol. He had the magazine sitting on the kitchen counter. His arm bumped the mag off the counter onto the kitchen floor. The round on top discharged. I think this would qualify as an AD.