American Government Run Amok

[CarmelHP]

Dupe

Dupe

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...american_government_run_amok.html#post2196505

 

[danielocean03]

Relevant threads merged

 

[rambone]

Herman Cain said he would get rid of the EPA as it is. I agree, they should be dismantled and the States can handle their own issues.

He's lying. Just as previous republicrats have lied about abolishing agencies. I seem to remember one gop prez who campaigned on getting rid of the dept. of education. He's gone. It's still here. Cain, like the others is not to be trusted. He also has no understanding of the 1st Amendment.

Cain said that if he were forced to dismantle an agency, it would be the EPA. In the next breath he said that he would replace it with a "new EPA" that works for America. Righhht. He's about as conservative as the EPA's creator, Dick Nixon.

 

[jbombelli]

See what happens when you purchase a piece of property that some bureaucratic weenie had his eye on?

I would NEVER advocate citizens walking into local offices of the EPA and hosing the place with automatic weapons...

But I would sure applaud it.

I might even vote to acquit if I was on the jury.

 

[Bubba]

Ok - lets do away with the EPA plus the state's environmental regulations and rules -that way every facility and industrial plant can do as they please. Then all the oponents of the EPA can move southeast (the prevailing wind direction) of the IPL Powerplant on South Harding Street on the south side of Indianapolis. Oh, by the way, the facility can turn off their control systems (sulfur dioxide scrubbers and particulate control baghouses), then you can have 2 tons of sulfuric acid mist and 4 tons of particulates dumped on your property every day.

Or you can live east of the portland cement kiln in Greencastle which burns both coal and hazardous waste sans their control equipment. The your property can be subjected to high levels of heavy metals, dioxins, acid mist and volatile organic compounds.

Or you can live south of Quetmeco on the southwest side of Indianapolis and be subjected to high levels of lead since they can bypass their control equipment.

Or you can live in Pittsboro and have Steel Dynamics rip out their control equipement and be subjected to high concentraions of heavy metals, acid mist and particulates.

Or you can live south of Indianapolis on the White River and see 40 million gallons of raw sewage float by your house since the city can bypass the treatment plant since the EPA has been abolished. Don't call IDEM, the EPA, or the local health department to complain since the rules have been abolished and there is no one to help since you fired everyone.

Yes of course you are right. In fact, we should grant the federal government complete oversight of all land and every facet of it's use. Every change affecting land, from an oil refinery putting in a new cracker to a homeowner putting in a new water heater, should be subject to thorough and laborious review. Once the review is complete and work started, the situation should be re-reviewed, with new regulations and permitting requirements added, putting huge financial burdens on the involved parties. Come to think of it, we should just cede all property ownership to the feds, since they know best.

Alternatively, we could avoid arguing with ridiculous extremes (on both sides), and envision a smaller EPA that puts reasonable, economical, and fairly static restrictions on the most polluting sectors of society, without spending precious tax dollars villifying some poor property owners building on their own land after they already got permission to do so.

 

[Garb]

Ok - lets do away with the EPA plus the state's environmental regulations and rules -that way every facility and industrial plant can do as they please. Then all the oponents of the EPA can move southeast (the prevailing wind direction) of the IPL Powerplant on South Harding Street on the south side of Indianapolis. Oh, by the way, the facility can turn off their control systems (sulfur dioxide scrubbers and particulate control baghouses), then you can have 2 tons of sulfuric acid mist and 4 tons of particulates dumped on your property every day.

Or you can live east of the portland cement kiln in Greencastle which burns both coal and hazardous waste sans their control equipment. The your property can be subjected to high levels of heavy metals, dioxins, acid mist and volatile organic compounds.

Or you can live south of Quetmeco on the southwest side of Indianapolis and be subjected to high levels of lead since they can bypass their control equipment.

Or you can live in Pittsboro and have Steel Dynamics rip out their control equipement and be subjected to high concentraions of heavy metals, acid mist and particulates.

Or you can live south of Indianapolis on the White River and see 40 million gallons of raw sewage float by your house since the city can bypass the treatment plant since the EPA has been abolished. Don't call IDEM, the EPA, or the local health department to complain since the rules have been abolished and there is no one to help since you fired everyone.

Who said we should abolish or defund IDEM? You're really going out on a limb here.

 

[ATOMonkey]

Cain said that if he were forced to dismantle an agency, it would be the EPA. In the next breath he said that he would replace it with a "new EPA" that works for America. Righhht. He's about as conservative as the EPA's creator, Dick Nixon.

Well, it always comes down to how you enforce laws.

I think we all agree that some level of government is necessary to keep pollution in the waters and to an extent the air at an acceptable level.

You can pass a law that sets the standards, but you still need someone to enforce it.

The problem I have is giving agencies vague and powerful regulatory authority.

Make the law precise and clear cut. Draw boundaries. Don't just pass a law that gives someone regulatory power.

 

[rambone]

I think we all agree that some level of government is necessary to keep pollution in the waters and to an extent the air at an acceptable level.

The states (or local government) should be the ones regulating this stuff, not the Feds. Keep things more local. Local government knows their problems and needs better than Fedzilla ever could. Local governments are also easier to petition.

The Federal EPA shouldn't exist. Let the states compete for best economic & environmental policy.

 

[ATOMonkey]

The states should be the ones regulating this stuff, if anybody is. The Federal EPA shouldn't exist. Let the states compete for best economic & environmental policy.

How would you handle waterways and "airways" that cross state boundaries?

 

[rambone]

How would you handle waterways and "airways" that cross state boundaries?

The goal here is either free-market regulation or government regulations that are as local as possible. So I would either campaign against the business who was polluting, or else it is reasonable that local/state government protect common resources.

Any caveats to the above method can't be nearly as horrible as having a Federal EPA oppressing the whole country, and violating the 10th Amendment in the process. The EPA has only been around since 1970 and look at how awful it has become. The Feds are not to be trusted with powers they were not given in the constitution.

 

[Expat]

Any caveats to the above method can't be nearly as horrible as having a Federal EPA oppressing the whole country,

Unless it was your children dying of cancer or being born with birth defects.

 

[rambone]

Its for the children

Unless it was your children dying of cancer or being born with birth defects.

Don't worry, the Federal Government will save you.

 

[Ash]

Unless it was your children dying of cancer or being born with birth defects.

Don't worry, the Federal Government will save you.

That's assuming that the Federal Government has actully "saved the children". Are they taking credit where it's not due? Are they actually doing a better job than the States could, solely or cooperatively?

I'm going with a No.

 

[mrjarrell]

Well, the SCOTUS has spoken and the EPA has to back off from the Sackett's. Good for them. Too bad it ever had to go this far, and also too bad that the SCOTUS didn't hand down anything that would stop this type of behaviour in the future. There will be more lawsuits. Hopefully, they'll go as well as this one did. Here's hoping the Sackett's have enough money left to actually build their home now. They should have been awarded damages.

News Headlines

 

[IndyDave1776]

Don't worry, the Federal Government will save you.

Absolutely! As always, the Federal Government will save you from yourself by taking away those dangerous rights which can be harmful to you--after all, you simply aren't equipped to look after your own good!

 

[IndyDave1776]

Well, the SCOTUS has spoken and the EPA has to back off from the Sackett's. Good for them. Too bad it ever had to go this far, and also too bad that the SCOTUS didn't hand down anything that would stop this type of behaviour in the future. There will be more lawsuits. Hopefully, they'll go as well as this one did. Here's hoping the Sackett's have enough money left to actually build their home now. They should have been awarded damages.

News Headlines

That sounds like a pretty hollow victory to me. Telling the EPA that after inflicting such misery, they can just say 'oops' and walk away without being able to collect their astronomical and completely unjustified fines is hardly the message which needs to be sent.

 

[RockofStrength]

Ok - lets do away with the EPA plus the state's environmental regulations and rules -that way every facility and industrial plant can do as they please. Then all the oponents of the EPA can move southeast (the prevailing wind direction) of the IPL Powerplant on South Harding Street on the south side of Indianapolis. Oh, by the way, the facility can turn off their control systems (sulfur dioxide scrubbers and particulate control baghouses), then you can have 2 tons of sulfuric acid mist and 4 tons of particulates dumped on your property every day.

CLIPPED for brevity

Or we could sue for causing damage to other people's property (which is what those situations are causing). Let me build a garish monstrosity, paint it with solid lead, kill the endangered chipmunk living in the tree I cut down for my new karaoke stage, and spray paint the grass purple; so long as it does no harm to any land but that which I own why on earth should any government agency be permitted to forbid it?

 

[cobber]

Or we could sue for causing damage to other people's property (which is what those situations are causing). Let me build a garish monstrosity, paint it with solid lead, kill the endangered chipmunk living in the tree I cut down for my new karaoke stage, and spray paint the grass purple; so long as it does no harm to any land but that which I own why on earth should any government agency be permitted to forbid it?

Suits for damages, unless recognized, would be brought by individuals against corporations.

The EPA is a 500 lb. gorilla, but without regulations, many big corporations would be 501 lb. gorillas. Check out the movie "A Civil Action".

The problem is that most of this governmental environmental regulation was supposed to protect the public from big business (or big government), but the Sackett case shows how insane the regulators have become, turning on small property owners and intimidating them with actions and huge fines.

It's sad that the EPA appears to have lost focus, as well as its collective mind. Sad but inevitable, apparently. It's also sad that the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals couldn't see their way to the right decision either.

Bad agencies + bad court decisions. Plenty of bad to go around.

 

[KLB]

I think the court got it right. There are no ends to the complaints of courts legislating from the bench. This time they did not and there are complaints. They ruled that if someone wants to challenge an EPA compliance order, that it has to be heard quickly. Thus the EPA can not slap an order on someone and delay while charges mount and the owner is unable to do whatever it was they wanted to do in the first place until they give in finally.

Then Judge Alito told Congress to go back and clarify the Clean water act and what it is actually to be used for.

 

[IndyBeerman]

Suits for damages, unless recognized, would be brought by individuals against corporations.

The EPA is a 500 lb. gorilla, but without regulations, many big corporations would be 501 lb. gorillas. Check out the movie "A Civil Action".

The problem is that most of this governmental environmental regulation was supposed to protect the public from big business (or big government), but the Sackett case shows how insane the regulators have become, turning on small property owners and intimidating them with actions and huge fines.

It's sad that the EPA appears to have lost focus, as well as its collective mind. Sad but inevitable, apparently. It's also sad that the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals couldn't see their way to the right decision either.

Bad agencies + bad court decisions. Plenty of bad to go around.

The EPA is not a 500 gorilla, it never was (1000 is too small also). Just like other alpha bit agencies they have been grated powers that are wide and far fetching because they was allowed to interpret regulations as they see fit to enforce them. The only way that they can be truly reeled in is dissolvement of the agency and never let the wackos in charge be involved in any other form of power.