Andrew Wakefield on MMR vaccine

[level.eleven]

Wakefield wasn't the only one who thought that the measles virus introduced by vaccination may have been linked to the gut issues that seem to result in autism-like symptoms.

Scientists fear MMR link to autism | Mail Online

Except it doesn't say that. Don't get your science from supermarket tabloids.

Wake Forest Researcher Warns Against Making Connection Between Presence of Measles Virus and Autism - Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center

A few points about Steve Walker

That link is the complete debunking of the Daily Mail article about unpublished research that to this day is still making rounds in the conspiracy community. Expected when your main objective is disinformation and consumer confusion.

 

[steveh_131]

Except it doesn't say that. Don't get your science from supermarket tabloids.

Wake Forest Researcher Warns Against Making Connection Between Presence of Measles Virus and Autism - Wake Forest Baptist Medical Center

A few points about Steve Walker

That link is the complete debunking of the Daily Mail article about unpublished research that to this day is still making rounds in the conspiracy community. Expected when your main objective is disinformation and consumer confusion.

Your link didn't debunk anything. "Peers" disagreed. Who is lying and/or wrong? I don't know. I don't think I will ever know, because what little research on the topic that does get funding will be stifled by the 'peer review' process and probably never published.

I read the research methods and the results, and there did seem to be a correlation between the virus strain in the measles vaccine and certain gut issues. And those gut issues did seem to be correlated to symptoms of autism. That's as far as it got, and probably as far as it ever will.

 

[Nim]

Isn't all medical research staright up accurate and funding from the drug companies never has an effect on the outcome of research? They can't skew the results of their research for financial gain, can they?

I think I read that on the internet and everything on the internet is true, isnt it? I read that on the internet also.

 

[level.eleven]

Your link didn't debunk anything. "Peers" disagreed. Who is lying and/or wrong? I don't know. I don't think I will ever know, because what little research on the topic that does get funding will be stifled by the 'peer review' process and probably never published.

I read the research methods and the results, and there did seem to be a correlation between the virus strain in the measles vaccine and certain gut issues. And those gut issues did seem to be correlated to symptoms of autism. That's as far as it got, and probably as far as it ever will.

No, peers couldn't reproduce the findings. That isn't mere disagreement.

Also, lets remain truthful here.

You said -

Wakefield wasn't the only one who thought that the measles virus introduced by vaccination may have been linked to the gut issues that seem to result in autism-like symptoms.

The researcher said -

Walker says the new research does not support the connection, and he notes that the results have not even been published in a peer-reviewed journal. “Even if we showed association (between measles virus and bowel disease) and we published it in a peer-reviewed journal, the conclusion will be simply that there is measles virus in the gut of a large number of children who have regressive autism and bowel disease. End of story.
“We haven’t done anything to demonstrate that the measles virus is causing autism or even causing bowel disease.”

So let me get this straight, you found a a correlation but the researcher didn't? I don't know what to say about that.

It takes a lot of effort to keep up with the conspiracy crowd. First is was thimerisol. Then it was too many vaccines "overloading" the system. Now it is the chemistry of the gut. And of course every stage of scientific discovery from funding to peer review. Ughhh.

 

[steveh_131]

No, peers couldn't reproduce the findings. That isn't mere disagreement.

Also, lets remain truthful here.

You said -

Wakefield wasn't the only one who thought that the measles virus introduced by vaccination may have been linked to the gut issues that seem to result in autism-like symptoms.

The researcher said -

Walker says the new research does not support the connection, and he notes that the results have not even been published in a peer-reviewed journal. “Even if we showed association (between measles virus and bowel disease) and we published it in a peer-reviewed journal, the conclusion will be simply that there is measles virus in the gut of a large number of children who have regressive autism and bowel disease. End of story.
“We haven’t done anything to demonstrate that the measles virus is causing autism or even causing bowel disease.”

It takes a lot of effort to keep up with the conspiracy crowd. First is was thimerisol. Then it was too many vaccines "overloading" the system. Now it is the chemistry of the gut. And of course every stage of scientific discovery from funding to peer review. Ughhh.

Yes. Causation has not been shown. Simply an odd correlation. And like I said, further research probably won't happen. And if it does happen, it probably won't be published.

I know that your object of worship, 'science', is very important to you. It gives you a sense of control. Unfortunately, science is no better than its practitioners. And its practitioners are human beings. And the behavior of human beings is very unpredictable, but there is one principle I have found to be accurate when trying to find the truth - Follow the money.

Call it a conspiracy if you want. I don't care. I'd just call it human nature.

 

[level.eleven]

Head researcher - Our findings do not show a connection.

Steve - Your findings show a connection.

Other research teams - We can't even reproduce the study.

Steve - Science is bad and bought off.

Amazing.

 

[steveh_131]

I'm not certain which specific studies you're referring to. Here's a few that I've referenced before:

Potential viral pathogenic mechanism for new vari... [Mol Pathol. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI

RESULTS: Seventy five of 91 patients with a histologically confirmed diagnosis of ileal lymphonodular hyperplasia and enterocolitis were positive for measles virus in their intestinal tissue compared with five of 70 control patients. Measles virus was identified within the follicular dendritic cells and some lymphocytes in foci of reactive follicular hyperplasia. The copy number of measles virus ranged from one to 300,00 copies/ng total RNA.
CONCLUSIONS:
The data confirm an association between the presence of measles virus and gut pathology in children with developmental disorder.

http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/Singh%20Elevated%20MV%20antibody%20titers%202003.pdf

Serologically, the quantitative levels of viral antibodies
are described in Figure 1. It should be noted that the
measles antibody level was significantly (p .003) higher
in autistic children as compared to normal children.
However, in these two groups of children, the level of
mumps antibodies or rubella antibodies did not attain
statistical significance; the p values were 0.759 and 0.879
for mumps antibodies and rubella antibodies, respectively.
Moreover, a similar result was found when the comparison
was made between autistic children and siblings of autistic
children, i.e., autistic children harbored significantly (p
0.0001) higher levels of measles antibodies but not mumps
or rubella antibodies when compared to siblings of autistic
children. Furthermore, the immunoblotting analysis of
antigens immunopositive for measles antibodies is illustrated in Figure 2. The antibody in the autistic serum
recognized a protein of approximately 74 kd molecular
weight in the MVV blot (Figure 2, right panel 4 blots) but
the normal serum did not show this antibody reaction
(Figure 2, left panel 4 blots). While not revealed here, the
sera of siblings of autistic children were also negative.
After immunoblot screening of sera, we found that 43 of
52 (83%) autistic children, but none of the 30 normal
children or 15 siblings of autistic children, had these
antibodies to MVV. Since autistic children harbored these
antibodies but control children did not we think they are
abnormal or inappropriate antibodies to measles vaccine.

 

[level.eleven]

Hey Steve. Your first link is a Wakefield piece and your second is being hosted by a company that sells magic healing crystals. I'm sorry friend, but I'm going not to sift such questionable material. I know, conspiracy. I just don't do magic healing crystals. Mercola is a quack.

On a lighter note, this is the second piece of science you've presented this week that involved magic crystals.

 

[rambone]

What is conspiratorial about this? The bleeping CDC itself admits you can get brain damage from the vaccines. Debating on the existence of further, milder side effects is not anything to do with a conspiracy.

We already know the magic injections can maim and kill. We want to know if the magic shots can cause a learning disability.

 

[BogWalker]

If you assert our science is wrong, why can't your science be wrong? (Which I whole heartedly believe it is because the rest of science agrees it is.)

 

[steveh_131]

If you assert our science is wrong, why can't your science be wrong? (Which I whole heartedly believe it is because the rest of science agrees it is.)

It can all be wrong. But only one appears to be suppressed. I'd like to know why. Following the money gives me a clue.

 

[steveh_131]

Hey Steve. Your first link is a Wakefield piece and your second is being hosted by a company that sells magic healing crystals. I'm sorry friend, but I'm going not to sift such questionable material. I know, conspiracy. I just don't do magic healing crystals. Mercola is a quack.

On a lighter note, this is the second piece of science you've presented this week that involved magic crystals.

Wakefield was involved, but not in charge of the research. Refute the research if you disagree. Read the raw data and draw your own conclusions if you disagree.

Mercola simply hosted the other PDF. The study had nothing to do with Mercola. Again, refute the research if you disagree.

All of it is biased. Including what I presented. I seem to be the only one willing to acknowledge the possible bias of both sides. The difference is that the bias in favor of vaccines has a whole lot of government and corporate money behind it, while Wakefield and the like risk career-ending controversy for presenting their findings.

Weigh it as you will.

 

[BogWalker]

It can all be wrong. But only one appears to be suppressed. I'd like to know why. Following the money gives me a clue.

It's not suppressed, it's unaccepted. I suppose that life on the moon should be put in text books right next to the evidence proving there isn't? It's called science. Things that have been disproven aren't "suppressed" they just aren't passed around because they're false. Researchers tend not to go around disseminating false information.

 

[level.eleven]

It's not suppressed, it's unaccepted. I suppose that life on the moon should be put in text books right next to the evidence proving there isn't? It's called science. Things that have been disproven aren't "suppressed" they just aren't passed around because they're false. Researchers tend not to go around disseminating false information.

We both have made the mistake of engaging a conspiracy theorist. You can't win. If you show them where they are wrong you are labeled part of the conspiracy. It is a perpetual rabbit hole. The troubling aspect of this is how this mentality is gaining popularity amongst the ant-government, anti-capitalist, anit-science, homeshcool crowd. They may not recognize the reality, but they are lending credence to the Green is the new Red crowd - a movement set on undermining science and economics. Studies that are published and peer reviewed are bought off. Magic crystals on the other hand... How many times have we heard follow the money? Well, vaccines make up a paltry 2% of pharmaceutical revenue. Their hypothesis doesn't stand. Apparently there is a conspiracy to sell medicines that are administered once or up to three times including boosters. The root of this discussion isn't grounded in research, science, or logic, rather anti-government sentiment. THEY are out to get you.

Follow the money. Wakefield wasn't involved in a new MMR patent and doing work for a law firm that was set to launch a class action suit. There aren't anti-vax conferences where Jenny McCarthy claims her child was cured of autism from a colon cleanse that you can buy for $195.99. Everyone knows that doesn't work. What works are these power crystals and some colloidal silver. No way. That doesn't happen.

You aren't thinking along the lines that THEY are out to get you.

 

[steveh_131]

I am not into magic crystals. I am not entirely certain what they are.

But I'd trust someone peddling magic crystals over the CDC any day.

Vaccines are a big industry. $10 billion or higher, worldwide. And they account for a very large portion of the pediatric industry. Pharmaceutical companies have a lot more profit potential as they continue pushing adult elective vaccines like Gardasil. I don't buy that this kind of profit level doesn't buy you some scientists.

Wakefield may be a fraud. Who really knows. But the same correlations have been found in other studies than his 1998 study. His recommendation to split the MMR up was a good one. I've spoken to several pediatricians who preferred this method. It makes absolutely no sense to slam an infant's immune system with multiple viruses to build immunities to all at once. How is there any way a fragile body could do that and maintain the resources to fight off real infections?

Hey, do what you want. Load your kids up with whatever the CDC tells you. Not my business. I try to study both sides of the issue and weigh the options. You will not succeed in making me feel ignorant for that.

 

[level.eleven]

Wakefield may be a fraud. Who really knows.

Case closed.

 

[steveh_131]

Case closed.

and now he is wanted, dead or alive

 

[mbills2223]

It's not suppressed, it's unaccepted. I suppose that life on the moon should be put in text books right next to the evidence proving there isn't? It's called science. Things that have been disproven aren't "suppressed" they just aren't passed around because they're false. Researchers tend not to go around disseminating false information.