Apple Won't Create 'Backdoor' to Help FBI Access San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone

[jtdet01]

I think this is all a big guess on your part.

Sure, I 'guess' that Apple uses standard industry processes for design, development, and testing of their products, just like everyone else in the technology industry, and virtually every other industry. Maybe, just maybe, their processes are even leading in the technology industry allowing them produce some of the most popular devices on the planet. Maybe, just maybe, they actually know everything there is to know about the product that they created.
And sure, I 'guess' that Apple is using advanced automated tools for design, development and testing. Sure, my 'guess' might be wrong, Apple could be using a million monkeys to develop or test the features on the latest device.

 

[JettaKnight]

...
Sure, my 'guess' might be wrong, Apple could be using a million monkeys to develop or test the features on the latest device.

You speak like an electronic device manufacturing guru and not a cryptography guru or embedded software engineer.

Otherwise, you wouldn't be so sure you know everything.

 

[Alpo]

The FBI needs the phone cracked....just because. Might it give information on another terrorist connection? Maybe. Possibly. But I sincerely doubt it. I believe it's just a group of flattop lazy asses that exemplify the malevolence of bureaucratic authority and power abuse.

The perps are dead. Are there more terrorists out there? Yeah...why don't you get off your fat butts and walk around the world outside of your offices and computer screens?

 

[actaeon277]

(1 word won't pass the language filter. So I didn't embed it)
https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=3c4adcc9a69784d06e137cb38e3a791f&oe=57656973

 

[jtdet01]

You speak like an electronic device manufacturing guru and not a cryptography guru or embedded software engineer.

Otherwise, you wouldn't be so sure you know everything.

I didn't say 'guru'. I didn't say I know everything.

After 30 years in the computer technology industry, including embedded controls, experience in electronic device manufacturing, cryptography and embedded software, the engineers creating any device possessed all the knowledge about that device. Every aspect needed testing. Every feature had a test case. I expect nothing less from Apple.

 

[JettaKnight]

I didn't say 'guru'. I didn't say I know everything.

No, but you're acting as if you know what the capabilities of Apple's engineering group are because you have experience in electronic testing. In my posts on the subject I posit my only theories but couch it with position that I know enough to not think I know the true capabilities of any of the parties involved.

After 30 years in the computer technology industry, including embedded controls, experience in electronic device manufacturing, cryptography and embedded software, the engineers creating any device possessed all the knowledge about that device.

Not tracking. Are you talking about yourself?

Every aspect needed testing. Every feature had a test case. I expect nothing less from Apple.

Agreed, I expect Apple places a premium on verification and validation. More so than many similar companies (e.g. Microsoft)


Now, to say that they can crack into any encrypted data stored on their device simply because they have rigorous design verification is ridiculous.

In fact, it should be just the opposite. One might expect that they verify that their encryption algorithm does not contain flaws that can be exploited. I think you're suggesting that Apple's employing "security through obscurity" and purposely leaving in a backdoor. As time as told, this strategy tends to fail catastrophically.

The whole point of encryption is to make decryption extremely hard without the key. This goes for everyone - Bob, Alice, Mallory or even the engineers designing and implementing the algorithm. For an example of this look at the security audits of TrueCrypt. That software was the darling of the internet, but when development stopped the security community got suspicious; was there a backdoor? So the audit began to look for any flaws. The final report was that, no, there was no serious flaws; data encrypted with TrueCrypt could not easily be decrypted, even by the authors of TrueCrypt.

Any secure website uses a SSL implemented by your web browser. Surely you don't expect Google to be able to intercept and monitor that traffic simply because they designed Chrome and tested it, do you?


Now Apple's different: secretive. There's no source code to examine so no white box analysis can be undertaken. With only black box testing is likely that a backdoor could be missed; therefore it may be possible for what you posit - Apple's backroom engineers can do some hand waving and extract this data. Maybe.

 

[jkaetz]

No, but you're acting as if you know what the capabilities of Apple's engineering group are because you have experience in electronic testing. In my posts on the subject I posit my only theories but couch it with position that I know enough to not think I know the true capabilities of any of the parties involved.


Not tracking. Are you talking about yourself?

Agreed, I expect Apple places a premium on verification and validation. More so than many similar companies (e.g. Microsoft)


Now, to say that they can crack into any encrypted data stored on their device simply because they have rigorous design verification is ridiculous.

In fact, it should be just the opposite. One might expect that they verify that their encryption algorithm does not contain flaws that can be exploited. I think you're suggesting that Apple's employing "security through obscurity" and purposely leaving in a backdoor. As time as told, this strategy tends to fail catastrophically.

The whole point of encryption is to make decryption extremely hard without the key. This goes for everyone - Bob, Alice, Mallory or even the engineers designing and implementing the algorithm. For an example of this look at the security audits of TrueCrypt. That software was the darling of the internet, but when development stopped the security community got suspicious; was there a backdoor? So the audit began to look for any flaws. The final report was that, no, there was no serious flaws; data encrypted with TrueCrypt could not easily be decrypted, even by the authors of TrueCrypt.

Any secure website uses a SSL implemented by your web browser. Surely you don't expect Google to be able to intercept and monitor that traffic simply because they designed Chrome and tested it, do you?

This.

There is a difference between testing the OS and applications for functionality and decrypting encrypted information without the decryption key. It isn't like TV or Movies where every encryption can easily be undone by anyone with a computer. TrueCrypt is an excellent example.


That said, if the device is powered up and Apple can attach a debugger to the device without first deleting the data, then they should be able to get the data and or encryption key from the device.

 

[jamil]

This.

There is a difference between testing the OS and applications for functionality and decrypting encrypted information without the decryption key. It isn't like TV or Movies where every encryption can easily be undone by anyone with a computer. TrueCrypt is an excellent example.


That said, if the device is powered up and Apple can attach a debugger to the device without first deleting the data, then they should be able to get the data and or encryption key from the device.

bbbut Felicity Smoak can hack into anything in 5 seconds.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Garrison on WIBC talking about this today. Day after day making me wonder if anyone at WIBC has had "the talk" about taking him off the radio.

He seems like a nice guy, but he's constantly repeating himself these days. He tends to take some non-constitutional stances more and more

 

[jamil]

Garrison on WIBC talking about this today. Day after day making me wonder if anyone at WIBC has had "the talk" about taking him off the radio.

He seems like a nice guy, but he's constantly repeating himself these days. He tends to take some non-constitutional stances more and more

I used to listen to the podcasts on the way to and from work. The content just became less and less worth the not so daunting process of dealing with podcasts on mobile devices. We all get things mixed up sometimes, especially as we age, but it seemed to happen enough with him on the air I sometimes felt embarrassed for him.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

I used to listen to the podcasts on the way to and from work. The content just became less and less worth the not so daunting process of dealing with podcasts on mobile devices. We all get things mixed up sometimes, especially as we age, but it seemed to happen enough with him on the air I sometimes felt embarrassed for him.

Completely unrelated to this topic, but I can NOT believe they still have him doing commercial spots. They're recordings, and they're still cringeworthy... weird pronunciations and long pauses... They have to be wondering if the advertisers are OK with this

 

[ArcadiaGP]

I can see it now. This goes to court, then the SCOTUS.

Democrats: "SCOTUS is tied 4-4 on this! WE NEED TO CONFIRM OBAMA'S JUSTICE CHOICE SOON OR A TERRORIST WILL KILL US. REPUBLICANS WANT TERRORISTS TO KILL YOU."

That was easy.

Apple CEO: We Will Take This iPhone Case to the Supreme Court

Ironically, though, Scalia would have been with Apple on this. A Leftist judge would likely rule against the Constitution.

Scalia's death... may be why the FBI has chosen to pursue this so strongly now.

 

[dusty88]

I oppose giving the government this kind of access.

Moreover, if Apple is actually required to write software to allow the access, that is even more egregious. If so, the CEO should just say "come arrest me and make me do it" to demonstrate they are forcing someone to perform a task. This is not like handing over something you possess.

 

[mrjarrell]

So, Apple came out guns ablazing in their legal brief filed today. They aren't going to wimp out in this fight.

Apple's Legal Argument "Calls the Director of the FBI a Liar, in as Many Words" | Motherboard

 

[Expat]

As I understand it, Apple has the ability to put phone into diagnostic mode and then update the OS. The Feebs want them to rewrite their OS without the autodelete feature after 10 failed attempts, then install that on the phone. They will then use a brute force attack on the password. Or at least that is what I read.

 

[dusty88]

As I understand it, Apple has the ability to put phone into diagnostic mode and then update the OS. The Feebs want them to rewrite their OS without the autodelete feature after 10 failed attempts, then install that on the phone. They will then use a brute force attack on the password. Or at least that is what I read.

Yeah, I heard that from a "tech" type today.

That violates the 13th amendment: forcing someone to work for you.

 

[flightsimmer]

Am I being too simplistic here?I mean if the FBI wants to know what is on that phone then why don't they just give it to Apple to see if they can unlock it and give that information to the FBI if it's even possible?
That way everybody's privacy remains intact and the FBI gets what it (says) it wants.


So then what about Android phones and so on and so on?


And what if they do get into the phone and there's nothing on it?
Wasn't it a company phone? I think that's what I heard. I don't think I would want to keep my personal information on a company phone.


If Apple creates a back door into their phones, I see a bunch of people ditching the iPhone and there sales plummeting.


I know very little about software but I did stay in a Holiday Inn once.

 

[Alpo]

Am I being too simplistic here?I mean if the FBI wants to know what is on that phone then why don't they just give it to Apple to see if they can unlock it and give that information to the FBI if it's even possible?
That way everybody's privacy remains intact and the FBI gets what it (says) it wants.

If Apple can unlock the phone, then the FBI as a matter of course could get a warrant to have them unlock any phone in future cases. Bad idea.

So then what about Android phones and so on and so on?

As I understand it, it is easier to unlock Android phones. I may be wrong.

And what if they do get into the phone and there's nothing on it?
That is likely. What the issue here it seems to me, is the bureaucracy came up with an idea that they wanted to see the data on the phone. Not that it exists, but MIGHT exist. The perps are dead. The NSA has lots of information on call logs for the phone. What the FBI wants is private work product, if any. A bad idea.

Wasn't it a company phone? YES

I think that's what I heard. I don't think I would want to keep my personal information on a company phone.to

And any reasonable person would assume that there is nothing on the phone. That doesn't stop the FBI from wanting something that doesn't likely exist.


If Apple creates a back door into their phones, I see a bunch of people ditching the iPhone and there sales plummeting.

Secrets should never be recorded. If you want to keep something unknown, don't record it or tell any one. That is human nature 101 that every parent should tell their child by the time they are 2 years old....and repeated weekly.


I know very little about software but I did stay in a Holiday Inn once.

The FBI is overreaching here and deserves to be slapped down hard by the courts. It isn't about terrorists. It's about the limits of privacy.

 

[bwframe]

If this phone is so much of Homeland Security's case study on this terrorism case, what does that say about Homeland Security?

How has this act of terrorism affected our immigration/visa programs?

 

[jtdet01]

... therefore it may be possible for what you posit - Apple's backroom engineers can do some hand waving and extract this data. Maybe.

That said, if the device is powered up and Apple can attach a debugger to the device without first deleting the data, then they should be able to get the data and or encryption key from the device.

Now I am laughing even more. Holy crap, you comment on my post but do not understand....
(My post is about the absolute and complete knowledge of an engineered product and all the development tools needed to accomplish it, to disassemble and / or interact with the product is like a father playing with a son. It is natural consequence of the creation process.)

This Apple vs FBI 'debate' is NOT about Encryption.

It is about Apple's image in the marketplace. Read Tim Cook's letter to his employees... "Is it possible? Yes. but, but, but"

Apple was initially claiming is was impossible, which the letter confirms it is possible.

It is not about Security. It is not about Privacy. ...because Apple CAN do it!!!

...should they do what FBI wants? I say "NO, but can they get it, YES" .... and ... .... OK .... .... ... GO! Continue with the ridiculous debate.