Applied Ballistics in Lafayette-not kid friendly

[TiMMaY]

The reality is that most ranges are not going to be kid friendly, but neither are machine shops, meat processing plants and other places that employ dangerous tools.

 

[Leo]

Been there twice, never shot there, but they seemed a little cold to me both times. And not much inventory.

The new owner has put in quite a bit of pistol inventory, Nice stuff too.

 

[87iroc]

Comment above about Atterbury. I started taking my daughter when she was 8 up there. They never said anything about her. Of course, we go to another private range now...so no attempts for her to shoot since the Uzi incident out west.

I would have been heartbroken as well especially seeing the disappointment in my kids face...and would have the same response you did. I wouldn't be going back and I'd let them know that. Since the guy was apologetic I may have let it go after she got to the age that they said was OK. If he'd been a jerk I'd never grace their doorstep again. It does sound like he's up against the wall with his insurance company...not sure if 'finding another insurance co' is an option for somebody like him or not.

Saying its not 'kid friendly' depends on your definition of kids. Anyone under about 16 I"d consider a kid. I was disappointed as well when I was told that a gym I was giong to wouldn't let my 7 yr old daughter work out with me(She wanted to do the treadmill).

 

[Bluejeeper]

The new owner has put in quite a bit of pistol inventory, Nice stuff too.

They pushed Kimber quite heavily when I was last in there. One of the guys, maybe the owner, came back to the range while me and a friend were shooting and let us both put a couple mags downrange through his personal 4" Kimber. Overall really nice guys.



OP, I'm curious why after the person at the counter told you children under 10 weren't allowed to shoot you took your 9 year old back and let him shoot anyway?

 

[Destro]

I don't know how your beef can be seen as immature. I think the comment from thegeek was a little out of line. You have every right to be peeved about the policy. Only you know whether your son is responsible to shoot there and good for you for sticking up for him.

That said, the range has been put in a tough spot by the insurance company so I can understand why they are cautious. I think you did the right thing by leaving, but I also don't necessarily blame the owner for enforcing the policy.

I agree with this, and the beef IS with the range, as they pick their insurer. It's a valid point to make that a group of shooters feels left out.

 

[nickf2005]

I'l stress again that I have no beef with the owner. He seemed like a reasonable fellow.

After reading this post, that seem evident to me. Also, you agree with everyone that it's the insurance company that you're in conflict with.

That said, I think the title of your thread may mislead the tone of your post. The title makes it sound like "Don't go to Applied because they hate kids and they'll kick you out".

 

[Leo]

I agree with this, and the beef IS with the range, as they pick their insurer. It's a valid point to make that a group of shooters feels left out.

Insurance in the firearms industry is not like car insurance or homeowners policies.

I never owned a gun range, but was a partner in a contracting company. Anytime you are insuring something hazardous, the number of companies that will even consider selling you insurance gets pretty small. 20 years ago, I needed special insurance to do a big job at the Union 76 refinery in Joliet, IL. It was almost impossible to get a quote, too high of risk. A couple of the quotes were higher than the profit margin on the job. Companies like Westinghouse do not even have to buy insurance, because they are big enough to cash up a million dollar liability. My company was not. I doubt that Applied Ballistics can be self insured either. In this political environment the choice might be between the one the have or close the doors.

Take a look at how many reloading businesses have been forced out of profitability in the last couple of years due to new insurance policies. How many motorcycle helmet companies are left in the USA? NONE! THe Insurance costs ate up any chance of making a profit and staying in business.

I cannot hang my butt over the fence for a multi million dollar loss settlement, and I doubt if anyone here could either.

 

[halfmileharry]

The insurance company might have changed things after the kid shot the instructor at a range (Nevada I think).

Ins Co.s are like any other business. They'll seize the opportunity to raise costs when possible. . . .

 

[Gluemanz28]

Thanks for calling me out for being immature. You're a big boy and I have thick skin. That's all good. I'm not upset with the business. It's the circumstances. It's okay to bring him for a year, and then suddenly not? If it was my first time taking him, I get it.

First of all thank you for letting the INGO crowd know about the policy at AB. Hopefully it will help out somebody else from getting their kid disappointed. The bad news is that when we try to help others from making the same mistake it opens yourself up to the normal INGO loud mouths that will slam people and tell them how and why they are wrong. I don't remember reading that you were asking for opinions just stating what happened, but heck this is INGO so what else should I expect.

I belong to two indoor ranges in Elkhart and I have been taking my grandsons there shooting since they were 4 yrs old. I go to to the VIP side during the week at lunch time when hardly anybody is there so it is not to loud and he gets to shoot and practice his safety drills.

My advice is to find another range that allows your son to shoot.

 

[yeti rider]

Insurance in the firearms industry is not like car insurance or homeowners policies.

I never owned a gun range, but was a partner in a contracting company. Anytime you are insuring something hazardous, the number of companies that will even consider selling you insurance gets pretty small. 20 years ago, I needed special insurance to do a big job at the Union 76 refinery in Joliet, IL. It was almost impossible to get a quote, too high of risk. A couple of the quotes were higher than the profit margin on the job. Companies like Westinghouse do not even have to buy insurance, because they are big enough to cash up a million dollar liability. My company was not. I doubt that Applied Ballistics can be self insured either. In this political environment the choice might be between the one the have or close the doors.

Take a look at how many reloading businesses have been forced out of profitability in the last couple of years due to new insurance policies. How many motorcycle helmet companies are left in the USA? NONE! THe Insurance costs ate up any chance of making a profit and staying in business.

I cannot hang my butt over the fence for a multi million dollar loss settlement, and I doubt if anyone here could either.

Leo, reading between the lines of your posts, I'm guessing you either have, or had a dog in this fight at one time. I just think it sucks that someone is trying to bring a new shooter on to the sport, and the local gun range, of all places, can't do that. I waited to post about this incident because the first thoughts are not always the right thoughts. I've had plenty of time to reflect, and like I said before, I get it. I just don't think it's right. And on another note I tried to buy a firearm there late last year. It was a glock 30. I wanted clarification between a 30s and a 30sf. The response I got was, "I don't know, it's a glock thing". I went somewhere else local and purchased the TWO guns I was going to buy that day. It left a pretty bad impression....

 

[magus]

Ins Co.s are like any other business. They'll seize the opportunity to raise costs when possible. . . .

Disagreement here: Insurance Cos are not like other businesses. They are their own, special, circle of Hell.

 

[Leo]

Yeti, Fair enough. My Dog in the fight is that I just paid the $300 to renew my membership there and want to be sure they can stay open all year, and if I live another year and the end of the world does not happen, I want to shoot there next year too.

There are lots of places to buy guns, but it's not like you can go in the alley behind the place to try it out. I worked there two owners ago as a hobby, but now am strictly a retail customer. I HAVE been in Business, twice. Not some little side business from my house, but a place with serious cash flow. I KNOW what it takes to cut a $100K per week payroll. I know the pressure of being behind $250,000 to your material suppliers because you are having to sue a customer to get paid. I appreciate what it takes. I have been in a position where I had to make unpopular business decisions. You cannot make everybody happy all the time.

I was the same way in the '90's when I lived in Kokomo. Bullseye guns and boats is there. I am still friends with Roby. I liked having a close place to shoot. When the Clinton Administration was talking about limited gun purchases, I started buying a new one every month. ( Being a bachelor had it perks ) The only months I missed in 3 years were when I ordered from the Springfield Custom Shop and it took three months to get it and when I custom ordered fine grade wood on a Beretta shotgun. EVERY one I bought there were guys telling me I got "ripped off" because xxxxx place had it $20 or $30 cheaper. If that $30 kept the range that benefits me in business, it was a good investment. I figured two hours of my time and a tank of gas was more than I would have saved anyway. If Roby had to change a rule, I did not run him into the ground, I had trust that it was was something that could not be helped. The range is still there even though the store is only 1/2 the size.

Any place we want to have in the future, has to be supported today. Anything firearms related is taking a double hit from the government and the poor economy. If you are not wanting to support it fine, but do not tear it down. If the rule changed, it changed. No small businessman wants to make anybody unhappy. I am sure the new guy didn't pick the insurance with the mindset that he wanted to make your life tough. I am sure he made the best decision he could with the options available. We can all relate to that. Lots of things that I really liked in my life are no longer available. A person just has to adjust that times are changing.

One thing in I learned in this life, not everyone that agrees with you is your friend, and not everyone who disagrees is your enemy.

Hopefully you and your children will have a long future safely enjoying firearms.

 

[wolfman]

Even thought it is an outdoor range and closed for the season, Eagle Creek Pistol Range will allow kids to shoot as long as they demonstrate the ability to safely handle and operate their firearm. One in particular that I can think of is a little 6 (I think) year old girl that could barely see over the barrel that I watched cut a silver dollar size hole in the bullseye with her .22 rifle.

 

[Mgderf]

I volunteered at Applied Ballistics to help teach the National Shooting Sports foundation's "First Shots" program.
The program was designed toward brand new shooters of all ages.
During the 3 years I was involved in the program we put roughly 500+ people through the class.
My 73 year old mother took the class, along with her best friend of 45 years.
We taught octogenarians and pre-teens alike. I know we taught kids as young as 6. It all depended on the child, the parent, and the instructor ALL being on board with the idea.

Before the management change the program was discontinued. I'm not sure why, but it wouldn't surprise me that insurance played a role.

I cannot speak about the new owners business practices/policies as I have not had occasion to teach any classes since before he took over.

That said, I have met the new owner. He seems like an upstanding guy. If he told you it was due to insurance I would have no reason to doubt it.
The staff that I know there are all courteous and professional. So one person did not know the difference between 2 different models of Glocks? OMG!
A gun shop employee that doesn't know every last detail about every single firearm on the market? Really?

I've been around firearms most of my life, but I don't know crap about more makes and models than I DO know about.
I've been in the construction business for more than 15 years, but I learn new things all the time.

I understand your frustration. I really do.
I miss teaching kids how to shoot. I think I had more fun than some of them did.

I don't think it's fair for you to give them a bad review. The employees have a job to do.
They told you your son was no longer eligible to shoot, but you let him shoot anyway.
That's not much of a life lesson example you're setting.

 

[yeti rider]

Yeti, Fair enough. My Dog in the fight is that I just paid the $300 to renew my membership there and want to be sure they can stay open all year, and if I live another year and the end of the world does not happen, I want to shoot there next year too.

There are lots of places to buy guns, but it's not like you can go in the alley behind the place to try it out. I worked there two owners ago as a hobby, but now am strictly a retail customer. I HAVE been in Business, twice. Not some little side business from my house, but a place with serious cash flow. I KNOW what it takes to cut a $100K per week payroll. I know the pressure of being behind $250,000 to your material suppliers because you are having to sue a customer to get paid. I appreciate what it takes. I have been in a position where I had to make unpopular business decisions. You cannot make everybody happy all the time.

I was the same way in the '90's when I lived in Kokomo. Bullseye guns and boats is there. I am still friends with Roby. I liked having a close place to shoot. When the Clinton Administration was talking about limited gun purchases, I started buying a new one every month. ( Being a bachelor had it perks ) The only months I missed in 3 years were when I ordered from the Springfield Custom Shop and it took three months to get it and when I custom ordered fine grade wood on a Beretta shotgun. EVERY one I bought there were guys telling me I got "ripped off" because xxxxx place had it $20 or $30 cheaper. If that $30 kept the range that benefits me in business, it was a good investment. I figured two hours of my time and a tank of gas was more than I would have saved anyway. If Roby had to change a rule, I did not run him into the ground, I had trust that it was was something that could not be helped. The range is still there even though the store is only 1/2 the size.

Any place we want to have in the future, has to be supported today. Anything firearms related is taking a double hit from the government and the poor economy. If you are not wanting to support it fine, but do not tear it down. If the rule changed, it changed. No small businessman wants to make anybody unhappy. I am sure the new guy didn't pick the insurance with the mindset that he wanted to make your life tough. I am sure he made the best decision he could with the options available. We can all relate to that. Lots of things that I really liked in my life are no longer available. A person just has to adjust that times are changing.

One thing in I learned in this life, not everyone that agrees with you is your friend, and not everyone who disagrees is your enemy.

Hopefully you and your children will have a long future safely enjoying firearms.

Thanks for all of that. I'm not trying to run anyone in to the ground, i was just stating what happened and my feelings about it. And-i agree with you, but it still doesn't make me feel better.

 

[yeti rider]

I volunteered at Applied Ballistics to help teach the National Shooting Sports foundation's "First Shots" program.
The program was designed toward brand new shooters of all ages.
During the 3 years I was involved in the program we put roughly 500+ people through the class.
My 73 year old mother took the class, along with her best friend of 45 years.
We taught octogenarians and pre-teens alike. I know we taught kids as young as 6. It all depended on the child, the parent, and the instructor ALL being on board with the idea.

Before the management change the program was discontinued. I'm not sure why, but it wouldn't surprise me that insurance played a role.

I cannot speak about the new owners business practices/policies as I have not had occasion to teach any classes since before he took over.

That said, I have met the new owner. He seems like an upstanding guy. If he told you it was due to insurance I would have no reason to doubt it.
The staff that I know there are all courteous and professional. So one person did not know the difference between 2 different models of Glocks? OMG!
A gun shop employee that doesn't know every last detail about every single firearm on the market? Really?

I've been around firearms most of my life, but I don't know crap about more makes and models than I DO know about.
I've been in the construction business for more than 15 years, but I learn new things all the time.

I understand your frustration. I really do.
I miss teaching kids how to shoot. I think I had more fun than some of them did.

I don't think it's fair for you to give them a bad review. The employees have a job to do.
They told you your son was no longer eligible to shoot, but you let him shoot anyway.
That's not much of a life lesson example you're setting.

Mgderf, I know all of this about you, as you and I have had a few dealings that went well for both of us. I didn't let him shoot after they said no. The people at the counter, at the time, seemed to be indifferent to what happened. As soon as i handed them his orientation card, no one gave me a straight answer until the owner came back to me on the firing line. I stopped him when the owner came back and asked me to. And as far as the gun goes, I work in a retail setting as well. It is my job to educate the consumer if they have questions. If I cannot answer a question, i actually take the time to figure out an answer. This person had no time for me-they made that very clear. I think that was a more than fair review.

 

[funeralweb]

Yeti, Fair enough. My Dog in the fight is that I just paid the $300 to renew my membership there and want to be sure they can stay open all year, and if I live another year and the end of the world does not happen, I want to shoot there next year too.

There are lots of places to buy guns, but it's not like you can go in the alley behind the place to try it out. I worked there two owners ago as a hobby, but now am strictly a retail customer. I HAVE been in Business, twice. Not some little side business from my house, but a place with serious cash flow. I KNOW what it takes to cut a $100K per week payroll. I know the pressure of being behind $250,000 to your material suppliers because you are having to sue a customer to get paid. I appreciate what it takes. I have been in a position where I had to make unpopular business decisions. You cannot make everybody happy all the time.

I was the same way in the '90's when I lived in Kokomo. Bullseye guns and boats is there. I am still friends with Roby. I liked having a close place to shoot. When the Clinton Administration was talking about limited gun purchases, I started buying a new one every month. ( Being a bachelor had it perks ) The only months I missed in 3 years were when I ordered from the Springfield Custom Shop and it took three months to get it and when I custom ordered fine grade wood on a Beretta shotgun. EVERY one I bought there were guys telling me I got "ripped off" because xxxxx place had it $20 or $30 cheaper. If that $30 kept the range that benefits me in business, it was a good investment. I figured two hours of my time and a tank of gas was more than I would have saved anyway. If Roby had to change a rule, I did not run him into the ground, I had trust that it was was something that could not be helped. The range is still there even though the store is only 1/2 the size.

Any place we want to have in the future, has to be supported today. Anything firearms related is taking a double hit from the government and the poor economy. If you are not wanting to support it fine, but do not tear it down. If the rule changed, it changed. No small businessman wants to make anybody unhappy. I am sure the new guy didn't pick the insurance with the mindset that he wanted to make your life tough. I am sure he made the best decision he could with the options available. We can all relate to that. Lots of things that I really liked in my life are no longer available. A person just has to adjust that times are changing.

One thing in I learned in this life, not everyone that agrees with you is your friend, and not everyone who disagrees is your enemy.

Hopefully you and your children will have a long future safely enjoying firearms.

kajillion.

 

[Edjer]

He explained to me that insurance has made them set an age limit on shooters and that he himself, had young children (I want to say around 5 and 7 years old) that were not able to go to his place of business and shoot.

The new Owner is obviously constrained by the restrictions put in-place by his insurance company. When you first took your son there to shoot, the restrictions were not in place, now they are. Getting upset with the Owner is pointless. He's just a small business owner playing the cards he's been dealt.

Perhaps he'll shop for a different carrier with less age restrictions...

 

[dusty88]

Insurance in the firearms industry is not like car insurance or homeowners policies.

I never owned a gun range, but was a partner in a contracting company. Anytime you are insuring something hazardous, the number of companies that will even consider selling you insurance gets pretty small. 20 years ago, I needed special insurance to do a big job at the Union 76 refinery in Joliet, IL. It was almost impossible to get a quote, too high of risk. A couple of the quotes were higher than the profit margin on the job. Companies like Westinghouse do not even have to buy insurance, because they are big enough to cash up a million dollar liability. My company was not. I doubt that Applied Ballistics can be self insured either. In this political environment the choice might be between the one the have or close the doors.

Take a look at how many reloading businesses have been forced out of profitability in the last couple of years due to new insurance policies. How many motorcycle helmet companies are left in the USA? NONE! THe Insurance costs ate up any chance of making a profit and staying in business.

I cannot hang my butt over the fence for a multi million dollar loss settlement, and I doubt if anyone here could either.

Exactly. This isn't about how responsible your kids are or are not. Sometimes there is literally only 1 policy available for a specialized business of a certain size. Choice of policies is also affected by agreements you might be forced into by municipalities or landlords.

You can approach this from 3 angles:
1) Fight the trial lawyers and insurance company lobbyists that influence things on the federal and state level (yeah, good luck with that right)
2) Write a short and polite letter to the business owner letting them know that while you understand his position, you will have to go somewhere where kids are allowed. At least then if the option comes up for him to spend more for another policy, he's got 1 more reason to consider it. Call every range and club in your area and find out where you can take your kid.
3) Buy or lease a chunk of private property where you can make your own rules.

 

[RobbyMaQ]

Well, IMO it sucks that your child was 'qualified' and then later the rules changed.
I'm not real fond of the clientele @ indoor ranges as of late. I find myself being aware of everyone else when I see stupid crap going on around me, diverting attention from the task at hand.

So, if there's a bright side, perhaps it is that you will find a more suitable range where you and your son can shoot.