AR-15 Accuracy Questions (Pic Heavy)

[red46239]

Some background: I attended the Appleseed in Liberty Indiana (awesome event, highly recommend Appleseed to everyone!). Afterwards, I decided I would like to shoot a known distance Appleseed (out to 400-500 yards). I already had an AR so I decided I would just set it up for shooting longer distances (scope instead of the red dot, new stock, sling, etc.). I had only put 200-300 rounds through my AR with the red dot.

So I made the trip back to Liberty to have Alan set me up with a Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP. Last weekend I finally got down to Atterbury to really get it dialed in. I started shooting 10 shot groups, but my groups were bad. I only had some Winchester 62gr with me, so this weekend I decided to go back with some different ammo and my sled and see what is what.

Here is the info on my AR:
Doublestar Lower with CMMG LPK
16" WOA stainless match barrel 1 in 7", chambered in .223 Wylde
RRA chromed BCG

Below are some photos of my groups. My questions are below the photos.

Group #1 - American Eagle XM855 - 5.56 x 45 - 62gr (green tip):

Group #2 - Independence - 5.56 x 45 - 55gr FMJ

Group #3 - Federal XM193 - 5.56 x 45 - 55gr Ball

Group #4 - Federal Premium .223 – 69gr MatchKing BTHP

Group #5 - Federal Premium .223 – 69gr MatchKing BTHP - Adjusted scope 14 clicks up, 6 clicks left

Group #6 - Federal XM193 - 5.56 x 45 - 55gr Ball

Okay, obviously it likes the Federal Premium Matchking 69gr. the best. My questions are: Should I expect better groups than this (I do, but maybe I'm crazy)? Should I try other types of ammo? Suggestions? Brand? Weight? Anything else I should be looking at that would tighten my groups up? I used the sled to specifically take me out of the equation as much as possible.

I'm assuming that one of the responses will be 'copper or lead fouling'. Could this be the case with only around 500 rounds through it? I typically clean after every outing. Maybe I need to use a different product / method (using CLP now)?

One of the other responses I expect is to check my scope mounting. I had Alan (AA Optics) mount the scope for me. I feel like I should be able to take it out of the equation, but if there is something specific I should check, I'm willing.

Any and all advice / help is appreciated. Sorry this was so long, just trying to give all the information.

 

[Manatee]

The matchkings look real good. A sled is not a fixed rest. Things do move. But I'd be pretty happy with the matchkings. Enough to move out of the rest and see what I was capable of.

You don't mention whether the barrel is floating or not.

Can the rifle do better....or can you do better? 99% of the time, it's you, not the equipment.

 

[red46239]

The matchkings look real good. A sled is not a fixed rest. Things do move. But I'd be pretty happy with the matchkings. Enough to move out of the rest and see what I was capable of.

You don't mention whether the barrel is floating or not.

Can the rifle do better....or can you do better? 99% of the time, it's you, not the equipment.

Yes, the barrel is floating.

Agreed about shooter vs. equipment, and I understand that the sled is not 100% fixed. I was shooting from the sled to take as much of the shooter out of the equation as possible to see what the equipment was capable of. I'm planning to get a few more types / weights to see what effect they have.

Thanks for the input.

 

[sloughfoot]

All of your groups are normal for the ammo you were shooting out of non-match barrel.

If you want smaller groups you need a better barrel.

Edit....I missed the note of the woa stainless barrel.

That just leaves shooter improvement if are unhappy with group size.

 

[palerider0485]

those groups dont look reall good, i shoot right around 1 moa with a 24 inch stainless barrel, and wish i was always shooting the same hole.

 

[red46239]

Oh, and I did take it out of the sled. Here is a full 30round mag of Remington UMC .223 55gr shot at 100yds with a sling only (no sled, no bipod, no rest). I don't know why I didn't shoot a 10 shot group out of the sled with this ammo like I did the rest...

I adjusted my scope 4 clicks right before this group.

 

[GunSlinger]

Oh, and I did take it out of the sled. Here is a full 30round mag of Remington UMC .223 55gr shot at 100yds with a sling only (no sled, no bipod, no rest). I don't know why I didn't shoot a 10 shot group out of the sled with this ammo like I did the rest...

I adjusted my scope 4 clicks right before this group.

I sure see nothing wrong with this grouping Red...especially from a free standing position. At 100 yards any of those shots would get the job done.

 

[red46239]

All of your groups are normal for the ammo you were shooting out of non-match barrel.

If you want smaller groups you need a better barrel.

Edit....I missed the note of the woa stainless barrel.

That just leaves shooter improvement if are unhappy with group size.

Do you think there is something I could be doing out of a sled to open groups up that much? I'm all for improving as a shooter. I was trying to determine what the equipment is capable of from the sled so I have a baseline to 'shoot' for.

 

[red46239]

I sure see nothing wrong with this grouping Red...especially from a free standing position. At 100 yards any of those shots would get the job done.

Sorry, not standing, seated at the bench using a sling. Elbows on bench, simulating prone. Kind of limited as to positions at Atterbury. Not sure if they allow standing.

 

[gregkl]

Some background: I attended the Appleseed in Liberty Indiana (awesome event, highly recommend Appleseed to everyone!). Afterwards, I decided I would like to shoot a known distance Appleseed (out to 400-500 yards). I already had an AR so I decided I would just set it up for shooting longer distances (scope instead of the red dot, new stock, sling, etc.). I had only put 200-300 rounds through my AR with the red dot.

So I made the trip back to Liberty to have Alan set me up with a Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP. Last weekend I finally got down to Atterbury to really get it dialed in. I started shooting 10 shot groups, but my groups were bad. I only had some Winchester 62gr with me, so this weekend I decided to go back with some different ammo and my sled and see what is what.

Here is the info on my AR:
Doublestar Lower with CMMG LPK
16" WOA stainless match barrel 1 in 7", chambered in .223 Wylde
RRA chromed BCG

Not to thread jack but I am curious about your decision making process on setting up your AR for Appleseed. I am going to build a rifle for Appleseed and am trying to figure out how to configure it. It may be used for other things too, but right now I see me using it mostly for paper punching but I don't want to rule out a prairie dog hunt, or some other type of rifle competition like a High Power Match.

 

[DRob]

Your groups are indicative of a couple of things. First, except for the 69 gr Matchkings, you are shooting ammo which is not conducive to great accuracy. (AKA crap ammo) Second, and just my opinion, you would probably do better with front and rear bags as opposed to a one-piece rest. What trigger does your AR have?

Your best group looks to be about 1 3/4". I believe your rifle should be capable of much better, particularly off a bench with decent rests.

 

[jonny4523]

Here are a few of my opinions:

1. I've had awesome results with XM193. I definitely would not call that crap ammo and you should better accuracy out of it.
2. That is a nice barrel, did you install it yourself or did White Oak install it? If you installed it, is the barrel nut properly torqued and gas tube properly aligned?
3. Being a 1:7 twist, your barrel is going to like a longer bullet (69s). If you want even better accuracy, try a longer bullet (75gr hornady or 77gr sierra).
4. I assume you're using the standard single stage trigger that came in your CMMG kit? How's it feel? If you're going for accuracy, I'd suggest switching to a 2 stage trigger. If you're on a budget, try a Rock River 2-stage match trigger. If you have a bigger budget, try one of the multitudes of Geissele 2-stages triggers). I'd suggest the SSA-E or Service Rifle trigger. Trading Place Pawn has the best prices on Geissele triggers that I've ever seen. I think I've bought 3 or 4 from them now.
5. For my best accuracy, I prefer to go prone using a sling, just like Appleseed taught you. Personally, I get better results shooting this way than I do out of a sled.

Just out of curiosity, which free floating rail are you using?

 

[red46239]

Not to thread jack but I am curious about your decision making process on setting up your AR for Appleseed. I am going to build a rifle for Appleseed and am trying to figure out how to configure it. It may be used for other things too, but right now I see me using it mostly for paper punching but I don't want to rule out a prairie dog hunt, or some other type of rifle competition like a High Power Match.

I had the AR built prior to getting interested in Appleseed. It was my first AR and I tried to buy parts that were the most 'bang for my buck' - quality components, but not always going for name recognition. The changes I made to set it up for an Appleseed were to add a scope and change my stock. Some will say that you can shoot an Appleseed with irons, and you absolutely can, I just prefer a scope. As far as the scope I chose, Alan's high pressure sales techniques convinced me to to cash in my kids' college funds so I could afford it.... Kidding of course. I chose the scope I did because it is a quality scope with a warranty that can't be matched. If I decide I really want to get into long distance shooting (a very good possibility) I can put this scope on another rifle and be good to go.

Changing the stock was simply personal preference. I had a Magpul MOE stock originally. When shooting prone, I did not like that my cheek weld was at the joint between the stock and the buffer tube. I chose an Ergo F93 because the cheek rest was fixed with the stock being adjustable.

 

[red46239]

Your groups are indicative of a couple of things. First, except for the 69 gr Matchkings, you are shooting ammo which is not conducive to great accuracy. (AKA crap ammo) Second, and just my opinion, you would probably do better with front and rear bags as opposed to a one-piece rest. What trigger does your AR have?

Your best group looks to be about 1 3/4". I believe your rifle should be capable of much better, particularly off a bench with decent rests.

Fair enough about the ammo. Any suggestions with my setup (1-7 twist, 16" barrel)?

Why do you think that two bags would be better than the sled? Not disagreeing, just curious. Again, only using the sled to try and determine what the equipment can do and what ammo would be best. I would not typically shoot from a sled (or bags).

I agree, should be better.

 

[jonny4523]

Not to thread jack but I am curious about your decision making process on setting up your AR for Appleseed. I am going to build a rifle for Appleseed and am trying to figure out how to configure it. It may be used for other things too, but right now I see me using it mostly for paper punching but I don't want to rule out a prairie dog hunt, or some other type of rifle competition like a High Power Match.

WOA is the way to go for Appleseed or Highpower specific rifles. But your lower with an A2 stock and quality 2-stage trigger. Than buy this upper:
White Oak Armament | Complete Uppers | High Power Competition | AR15 Upper Post-Ban

Or this one if you want a flash hider on it.
White Oak Armament | Complete Uppers | High Power Competition | AR15 Upper Pre-Ban

They build their uppers that meet all NRA highpower criteria but still free float the barrel. Only downside is that they are in high demand and lead times might be a little long right now.

 

[red46239]

Here are a few of my opinions:

1. I've had awesome results with XM193. I definitely would not call that crap ammo and you should better accuracy out of it.
2. That is a nice barrel, did you install it yourself or did White Oak install it? If you installed it, is the barrel nut properly torqued and gas tube properly aligned?
3. Being a 1:7 twist, your barrel is going to like a longer bullet (69s). If you want even better accuracy, try a longer bullet (75gr hornady or 77gr sierra).
4. I assume you're using the standard single stage trigger that came in your CMMG kit? How's it feel? If you're going for accuracy, I'd suggest switching to a 2 stage trigger. If you're on a budget, try a Rock River 2-stage match trigger. If you have a bigger budget, try one of the multitudes of Geissele 2-stages triggers). I'd suggest the SSA-E or Service Rifle trigger. Trading Place Pawn has the best prices on Geissele triggers that I've ever seen. I think I've bought 3 or 4 from them now.
5. For my best accuracy, I prefer to go prone using a sling, just like Appleseed taught you. Personally, I get better results shooting this way than I do out of a sled.

Just out of curiosity, which free floating rail are you using?

1. I agree, should be better... maybe not with a 1-7 twist?
2. I installed it. I used a torque wrench, and the gas tube is aligned. Just curious, how could the tightness of the barrel nut effect accuracy, other than being too loose (I get that)?
3. That is what I was thinking too. Now to find some...
4. Yes, standard single stage trigger. Actually feels pretty decent - smooth, no grit. I would prefer it to be a little lighter, but I can't complain too much. I'm a little spoiled by the Kidd trigger in my 10/22... I actually went by USDS on Friday to have them do some work on the trigger to lighten it up a bit, but Chad wasn't in. That is the reason I went with the sled yesterday. Trying to take any potential mistakes on my end out of the equation (as much as possible).
5. I will definitely try this, just have to shoot somewhere besides Atterbury. I shot a 221, 226, and a 230 at my first (and only so far) Appleseed, so I would expect to be able to shoot good groups.

My rail is a Midwest Industries Gen II SS Series 12" rail.

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

 

[silentvoice71]

Shoot 77gr the military shoots 77 out of thier spr guns with a 1:7 twist. Notice your groups got worse as you went down in grains.

 

[jonny4523]

1. I agree, should be better... maybe not with a 1-7 twist?
2. I installed it. I used a torque wrench, and the gas tube is aligned. Just curious, how could the tightness of the barrel nut effect accuracy, other than being too loose (I get that)?
3. That is what I was thinking too. Now to find some...
4. Yes, standard single stage trigger. Actually feels pretty decent - smooth, no grit. I would prefer it to be a little lighter, but I can't complain too much. I'm a little spoiled by the Kidd trigger in my 10/22... I actually went by USDS on Friday to have them do some work on the trigger to lighten it up a bit, but Chad wasn't in. That is the reason I went with the sled yesterday. Trying to take any potential mistakes on my end out of the equation (as much as possible).
5. I will definitely try this, just have to shoot somewhere besides Atterbury. I shot a 221, 226, and a 230 at my first (and only so far) Appleseed, so I would expect to be able to shoot good groups.

My rail is a Midwest Industries Gen II SS Series 12" rail.

Thanks for the input, much appreciated.

1. Even with a 1:7 twist. All of my 1:7 barrels (Noveske, WOA, & BCM) give me very nice results. I have a picture somewhere that I took of a group I shot with the noveske putting them darn near all in 1 hole at 50 yards. I've shot sub MOA with 55gr ammo using my 1:8 Loki barrel. The BCM barrels don't usually get shot for groups. But I'd be willing to be they group very nicely.
2. My only concern with torque would be if it were too loose.
3. Do you hand load? There are some awesome recipes for these heavier bullets. Of course, Federal makes some really nice match grade rounds with the 77 sierras if you are willing to pay for it.
4. You should find a buddy with a nice 2 stage and maybe borrow his lower? Or if you're ever up in the Lafayette area, I'd be more than willing to take you out and let you try it with both Rock River and Geissele triggers.

6. That Midwest rail is pretty skinny. Which gas block are you using? How much clearance around the gas block and rail do you have? I have seen builds where even though they are technically free floating the barrel, but once pressure is applied to the rail, it'll actually deflect enough to hit the gas block. Obviously, just setting it on a sled shouldn't give you that much deflection. I've also seen where the wrong rail / combo was used and it takes the free float function away. My first build I was using a Troy Vtac alpha rail with a Troy clamp on gas block. Once installed, it was easy to tell that the bottom of the rail would easily contact the bottom of the gas block clamp with a little pressure. Not idea when you're building a 3-gun rifle.

 

[wsenefeld]

That trigger is really holding you back if precision is your game. At 100 yards with 55gr-62gr ammo, my builds will shoot no worse than 2-3 moa with a standard 1:7 CHF Spike's barrel and an Aimpoint PRO or PST 1-4. My Geissele triggers are the key. I have an SD-C in the SBR project, SSA with the Aimpoint PRO, and the SSA-E with the PST 1-4.

 

[jonny4523]

Like DRob asked, what trigger are you using? At 100 yards with 55gr-62gr ammo, my build will shoot no worse than 2-3 moa with a standard 16" 1:7 CHF Spike's barrel.

4. Yes, standard [CMMG] single stage trigger. Actually feels pretty decent - smooth, no grit. I would prefer it to be a little lighter, but I can't complain too much.

See above.