AR Pistol vs AR "firearm"

[Big Hank]

First, it seems the ATF has their own definition of a firearm. Meaning a pistol and a firearm are different. I will try to list examples for clarity. AND PLEASE IF YOU KNOW MORE ON THIS, SHARE.

With ZERO exaggeration, I have 5 hours focused on this one topic and can't seem to reach a conclusion. This is the one ATF topic that nobody seems to have a letter to support.

The length to be an AR pistol or any pistol is less than 26". A length over 26" and no buttstock the weapon becomes a "firearm."

With respect to only the barrel the ATF defines the length of a barrel by measuring from the bolt face to the muzzle of the barrel AND BARREL ATTACHMENTS/muzzle devices DO NOT COUNT unless permanently attached, pinned, welded, etc...

Now with respect to the over all length (OAL) of the gun they don't seem to specify how you properly measure the weapon. Common sense tells me that OAL really is the OAL. If you built the smallest box possible to hold the weapon it would theoretically be a hair larger than what I see as the OAL and would have to be large enough to contain the muzzle device.

My current AR pistol is under 26" and if I install a standard A2 birdcage it will bring me to 26-1/16" or 26.0625. This has me on the fence, partially because of the ATF's definition of a pistol vs firearm.

examples for those maybe learning from this post:
1. Pistol is under 26" and and does not have a buttstock, also it cannot have a vertical forward grip (VFG)
2. Firearm when referring to an AR means no buttstock but an OAL greater than 26" and you can have a VFG
3. Length under 26" without buttstock, with a VFG and the weapon becomes an NFA - Any Other Weapon (AOW)
4. With buttstock and under 26" barrel and you have an NFA - Short Barreled Rifle (SBR)

This all brings me to my questions:
1. Can anyone answer with certainty how you properly measure OAL? Muzzle device count or not and would you verbally stand your ground to the ATF?

2. In Indiana, are there positives or negatives to owning an AR pistol versus what the ATF defines as a firearm? Assuming I have no desire to use a VFG?

3. Being from Indiana and transporting, are there advantages or legalities to one or the other?

4. Transporting outside the state and considering KY, OH, and MI. Example Michigan and their loaded rifle rules? I would assume as a pistol the weapon could be loaded, but 'no' if it was anything other than a pistol.

Thanks for taking the time to look over this long winded post. The ATF seems to have more opinions than a Glock versus 1911 thread..... Thanks for the help.

 

[avboiler11]

Length of a non-permanent muzzle deice does not count toward weapon OAL, as non-permanent muzzle devices can make the weapon's OAL variable depending on it being installed or removed. As such, measure from the end of the crown of the barrel (bare muzzle threads) to the end of the receiver extension.

10.5" barrels typically don't make it to 26" unless the muzzle device is pinned; 11.5" barrels are typically GTG.

 

[throttletony]

First, it seems the ATF has their own definition of a firearm. Meaning a pistol and a firearm are different. I will try to list examples for clarity. AND PLEASE IF YOU KNOW MORE ON THIS, SHARE.
...
The length to be an AR pistol or any pistol is less than 26". A length over 26" and no buttstock the weapon becomes a "firearm."
THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING AS WELL

With respect to only the barrel the ATF defines the length of a barrel by measuring from the bolt face to the muzzle of the barrel AND BARREL ATTACHMENTS/muzzle devices DO NOT COUNT unless permanently attached, pinned, welded, etc...
CORRECT -- only permanently attached muzzle devices count towards OAL.

Now with respect to the over all length (OAL) of the gun they don't seem to specify how you properly measure the weapon. Common sense tells me that OAL really is the OAL. If you built the smallest box possible to hold the weapon it would theoretically be a hair larger than what I see as the OAL and would have to be large enough to contain the muzzle device.
You've got the right idea. Lay it on a table top, mark at both ends.

My current AR pistol is under 26" and if I install a standard A2 birdcage it will bring me to 26-1/16" or 26.0625. This has me on the fence, partially because of the ATF's definition of a pistol vs firearm.
Won't count as such unless you pin & weld it to the barrel

examples for those maybe learning from this post:
1. Pistol is under 26" and and does not have a buttstock, also it cannot have a vertical forward grip (VFG)
2. Firearm when referring to an AR means no buttstock but an OAL greater than 26" and you can have a VFG
3. Length under 26" without buttstock, with a VFG and the weapon becomes an NFA - Any Other Weapon (AOW)
4. With buttstock and under 26" barrel and you have an NFA - Short Barreled Rifle (SBR)

This all brings me to my questions:
1. Can anyone answer with certainty how you properly measure OAL? Muzzle device count or not and would you verbally stand your ground to the ATF?

2. In Indiana, are there positives or negatives to owning an AR pistol versus what the ATF defines as a firearm? Assuming I have no desire to use a VFG?
Short package (good), but no buttstock (some say just get a real SBR), if you leave the VFG off you can almost limbo between it being a long pistol and a "firearm." Some might prefer this if they wanted to carry it loaded in a trunk, car, bag, etc. I try to look at it like this, whether you call it a handgun or a "firearm" it is still not a rifle, so follow the laws more as you would with a handgun. Don't carry it loaded without a license (doesn't really apply to longarms), etc.

3. Being from Indiana and transporting, are there advantages or legalities to one or the other?

4. Transporting outside the state and considering KY, OH, and MI. Example Michigan and their loaded rifle rules? I would assume as a pistol the weapon could be loaded, but 'no' if it was anything other than a pistol.
consider reciprocity of the LTCH if you want to carry it inside the car with you (as opposed to unloaded and locked in trunk, etc). Don't go anywhere near the commie gun states with this... that's just asking for trouble

Thanks for taking the time to look over this long winded post. The ATF seems to have more opinions than a Glock versus 1911 thread..... Thanks for the help.

Length of a non-permanent muzzle deice does not count toward weapon OAL, as non-permanent muzzle devices can make the weapon's OAL variable depending on it being installed or removed. As such, measure from the end of the crown of the barrel (bare muzzle threads) to the end of the receiver extension.

10.5" barrels typically don't make it to 26" unless the muzzle device is pinned; 11.5" barrels are typically GTG.

This is correct... however a 10.5" barrel + a Midwest industries pistol buffer tube (slightly longer) or a KAK super tube will put the OAL at 26.5" without any muzzle device!!

I've looked into this a lot as well.
see above, more edits to come shortly.
also:
Can you add a vertical fore-grip to an AR pistol? | The Law Office of John Pierce, Esq.
On this link look at Pgs. 2 and 3 of the ATF letter -- they seem to address your questions directly.

If you're concerned about the grip, you can always use an angled foregrip (AFG), but that doesn't seem to be one of your concerns.
In the end, it essentially loses the assumption of concealability once it exceeds 26," but unless in a court and dealing with an ATF expert, it's safer to treat it MORE like a pistol, even though technically it's a firearm.

ALSO, of concern, is the type of ammo you shoot. There's potential problems if you shoot M855 or similar through a pistol, since you can not (legally) shoot "armor piercing ammo" through a handgun. I know the technicalities (penetrator vs armor piercing, core material of bullet, etc) give plenty of room to argue this, but to an avg Joe police officer, these differences might not matter and he/she might prefer to confiscate the weapon and ammo and let the ATF sort it out.

 

[T.Lex]

One caveat on the federal pistol/SBR issue: Indiana has a separate definition of "handgun." So, too, I expect other states to have definitions with varying similarities from one to another.

In Indiana, I'm comfortable saying that and AR pistol/SBR will probably require a LTCH to "carry." To my knowledge, there are no cases on the issue, though.

In other states, it would be important to check the local definition of "handgun" or "pistol" to determine if some permit is necessary.

 

[throttletony]

One caveat on the federal pistol/SBR issue: Indiana has a separate definition of "handgun." So, too, I expect other states to have definitions with varying similarities from one to another.

In Indiana, I'm comfortable saying that and AR pistol/SBR will probably require a LTCH to "carry." To my knowledge, there are no cases on the issue, though.

In other states, it would be important to check the local definition of "handgun" or "pistol" to determine if some permit is necessary.

This is a great point. I am currently residing in Michigan, where the previous definition of a handgun was ANY firearm under 30" -- They have since changed this to comply more closely to federal definitions of 26"
From what I understood, MI was one of the only states to (previously) have a different length than 26"
but it's always worth verifying.

 

[Big Hank]

ALSO, of concern, is the type of ammo you shoot. There's potential problems if you shoot M855 or similar through a pistol, since you can not (legally) shoot "armor piercing ammo" through a handgun. I know the technicalities (penetrator vs armor piercing, core material of bullet, etc) give plenty of room to argue this, but to an avg Joe police officer, these differences might not matter and he/she might prefer to confiscate the weapon and ammo and let the ATF sort it out.

Thanks for this additional heads up. I try to go over the top to keep it legal.

As for the OAL.. For the most part I agree with you and that is how I want to inturpret the law and the way it's measured. It just seems the ATF really left this open ended by defining how to measure a barrel but not defining how to measure absolute OAL.

In summary: I'm very happy to know that I can be 1/16" over 26" with the muzzle device and even if I misunderstood a law and call this a pistol by mistake, the gun would still be legal in its current format. Owning a "firearm" or owning a pistol seems to be close enough when the weapon does not have additional accessories.

 

[throttletony]

Thanks for this additional heads up. I try to go over the top to keep it legal.

As for the OAL.. For the most part I agree with you and that is how I want to inturpret the law and the way it's measured. It just seems the ATF really left this open ended by defining how to measure a barrel but not defining how to measure absolute OAL.

In summary: I'm very happy to know that I can be 1/16" over 26" with the muzzle device and even if I misunderstood a law and call this a pistol by mistake, the gun would still be legal in its current format. Owning a "firearm" or owning a pistol seems to be close enough when the weapon does not have additional accessories.

Yeah, if it's under 26" with a bare muzzle, just don't put a VFG on it (or a buttstock, obviously). Otherwise, treat it as a pistol.

 

[throttletony]

I hope that letter in the link (at bottom of post #3) is at least a bit helpful

 

[Big Hank]

I hope that letter in the link (at bottom of post #3) is at least a bit helpful

Thank you for your effort in answering my question with such detail. I saw the title of the link and I also knew that I had mentioned VFG's, I assumed you clarified or backed any of my comments on VFGs. The link had so much more. Sincere apology for not following through with digesting the information in your efforts to answer my questions. I've saved the photo's...

 

[throttletony]

Thank you for your effort in answering my question with such detail. I saw the title of the link and I also knew that I had mentioned VFG's, I assumed you clarified or backed any of my comments on VFGs. The link had so much more. Sincere apology for not following through with digesting the information in your efforts to answer my questions. I've saved the photo's...

 

[Hoosier9364]

I don't understand the pistol AR as a serious gun. You can't carry it around and conceal it. The ballistics are terrible out of a short barrel. The rifle round needs the long barrel to be effective. Yeah they look cool but if you want a knockdown handgun get a 45, .50 or 10mm. Too many rules to dance around in today's political environment. One stoke of a pen and you could go to Federal prison or spend a lot of money trying to explain yourself. If your dead set just get something with the tax stamp then your covered.

 

[avboiler11]

The rules of an AR pistol are identical to those of any other pistol, and while I would agree about "concealability" of an AR pistol, short barrel AR ballistics are grossly underestimated by people that think AR food begins and ends at 55gr FMJ.

A 10.5" AR barrel sends a 77gr Matchking in 5.56 Mk262 form @ 2350fps and .223 62gr Fusion MSR @ 2500fps; that's 944ft/lb of energy at the muzzle for Mk262 and 860ft/lb for the expanding, bonded Fusion compared with Federal's 10mm 180gr Trophy Bonded JSP which has 650ft/lb energy at the muzzle. Yeah, that's an apples and pears comparison, but if I'm ever in an honest-to-God gunfight (which is highly unlikely) and I have a choice I'll take my non-serious AR pistol over a traditional handgun every day and twice on Sunday.

 

[throttletony]

I don't understand the pistol AR as a serious gun. You can't carry it around and conceal it. The ballistics are terrible out of a short barrel. The rifle round needs the long barrel to be effective. Yeah they look cool but if you want a knockdown handgun get a 45, .50 or 10mm. Too many rules to dance around in today's political environment. One stoke of a pen and you could go to Federal prison or spend a lot of money trying to explain yourself. If your dead set just get something with the tax stamp then your covered.

Why do you assume 5.56?? A 9" or 10.5" AR in 300BLK is a serious round.
I'll post some of MY reasons when i get back to a computer (on phone right now)

The rules of an AR pistol are identical to those of any other pistol, and while I would agree about "concealability" of an AR pistol, short barrel AR ballistics are grossly underestimated by people that think AR food begins and ends at 55gr FMJ.

A 10.5" AR barrel sends a 77gr Matchking in 5.56 Mk262 form @ 2350fps and .223 62gr Fusion MSR @ 2500fps; that's 944ft/lb of energy at the muzzle for Mk262 and 860ft/lb for the expanding, bonded Fusion compared with Federal's 10mm 180gr Trophy Bonded JSP which has 650ft/lb energy at the muzzle. Yeah, that's an apples and pears comparison, but if I'm ever in an honest-to-God gunfight (which is highly unlikely) and I have a choice I'll take my non-serious AR pistol over a traditional handgun every day and twice on Sunday.

 

[throttletony]

I don't understand the pistol AR as a serious gun. You can't carry it around and conceal it. The ballistics are terrible out of a short barrel. The rifle round needs the long barrel to be effective. Yeah they look cool but if you want a knockdown handgun get a 45, .50 or 10mm. Too many rules to dance around in today's political environment. One stoke of a pen and you could go to Federal prison or spend a lot of money trying to explain yourself. If your dead set just get something with the tax stamp then your covered.

What defines a "serious" gun? Give me a break. "One stroke of the pen" could equally screw over an NFA item owner.

I had previously posted this on another thread, but will repost it here:
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/handguns/402356-ar-pistol-sig-brace-better-alternative.html

.... I get it. An SBR can be a great option.
Consider...
1) some people know they're moving to another state and don't want to deal with the NFA hassle (especially in more restrictive states)
2) Other people don't want to pay the $200 based on being opposed ("moral grounds") to the tax existing at all
3) Some people don't want to grant the ATF potential access to their house
4) Some people don't want them to be registered
5) Some people travel and want to take their ar pistol with them... without begging the ATF overlords permission months in advance (I know a trust helps alleviate this issue)

THESE ARE ALL GREAT REASONS TO NOT DO AN OFICIAL SBR. And an AR pistol works great FOR ME because of these reasons and my current conditions
Don't bag on my AR pistol because an SBR works better for you.

 

[throttletony]

Edit, fixed.
See previous post.

 

[JACKD7]

Thanks for the thorough update' looking at MPX 9s with a brace "pistol".

 

[throttletony]

Thanks for the thorough update' looking at MPX 9s with a brace "pistol".

This is a cool setup.

Also -- looks like someone might be making a run for 50 posts??
Welcome (back?) to INGO! I see you're not brand new, but you've made a ton of posts just in the last little bit.

 

[tomray3of4]

Yeah it seems like a there are loopholes for everything