Asked to Leave Logansport Mall for OCing Off Duty

[UncleMike]

Show up to some of those forums and say "Hi, I'm a telemarketer, I call people on the phone every day and sell them stuff; we even use a predictive dialer to make my job more efficient. The best time to reach people is at dinner time." and see if they welcome you with open arms.

If I were a Telemarketer I'd keep it to myself when I visit gun forums......

 

[Thegeek]

I would go with people having private property rights and the government stay out of it. I should be able to control my own property as long as it does not interfere with the property rights of others.

So which is it? Have the right to ask someone to leave regardless of the reason, even racist reasons, or pick and choose which rights you have to check at the door?

 

[jbombelli]

If I were a Telemarketer I'd keep it to myself when I visit gun forums......

I can only assume that would be because you know full well that you'd be bashed because of your profession.

The same happens to telemarketers, used car salesmen, defense attorneys, debt collectors, repo-men, bail enforcement agents... and several other professions as happens to cops, and I've seen cops taking part.

Bashing: it's not just for cops.

 

[KG1]

I don't understand the mindset or mentality of utilizing open carry in a public arena. What is the purpose ? Intimidation, bluster, or . . . . . ? If the purpose of being armed is for self defense, is a confrontation less likely because an individual is openly carrying a firearm ?

I think this demonstrates a lack sensibility on the OP's part. With the concern(s) of the general public running rampant in today's environment, I think most folks would be either surprised or shocked or both to see an individual walking through a crowded (assumption) mall with a gun while the wearer was not in uniform.

I would think someone in law enforcement would be even more attune to the public reaction. I do take exception to anyone believing their personal right trumps the general consideration for common sense and well being. It brings to mind the theory that it's wrong to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre - regardless of the right to free speech. From a law enforcement standpoint, I suggest your situatinal awarenes would be raised if, while on duty, you encountered someone who was openly carrying a firearm.

Next time use some common sense and don't flaunt your 2nd amendment right. You do a disservice to your fellow gunowners - and to your department for that matter.

Yep, you're right. Open carry is for intimidation purposes only. That and to compensate for small penis syndrome. Can't leave that part out. (figuratively not literally)

 

[GONZO!!!]

I always CC when I go there...I sloppy CC...I dont show it , but if you look at my 3 O'Clock when i walk and my suit coat flares a bit, you can clearly see my 1911...I wear a suit for my work...have short hair..nicely dressed...I am often mistaken for a LEO ...I never try to impress that I am one in any way...I go to Logansport Mall to Dunhams all of the time...I have never been stopped. If you go thorugh the main doors to the mall directly across from Dunhams (the doors closest to teh fountain and the GNC hallway) they do have a small sign posted. Also posted on the doors to Sears.

I dont care...I will CC...

Good for you returning the equipment and explaining to the Dunham's manager how the mall's manager is causing you to make this decision...sadly that mall is dying..there are only maybe 8 stores open in the entire mall (if that).

 

[9mmfan]

The action I'm focusing on is this: OP was denied his 2a right. OP returned the goods and won't be going back.

I'm good with that.

As an aside, OP experienced what many of us have had to deal with and educated some of us how to deal with it.

I'm good with that too.

IMO, the rest is unimportant.

And to some of you responding in this thread about how stupid it is to OC, listen to the wise Duck's advice.

^^^^^This^^^^^^ should be everyone's response

 

[Hemingway]

If State Law grants an officer exemption from carry laws, why does a mall policy supersede it? I am assuming state laws exempt them, I mean a cop doesn't have to have a LTCH, right? He can carry anywhere in his jurisdiction, whether on or off duty, right?

If the mall can tell an off-duty cop he can't carry, can they tell an ON-DUTY cop he can't carry?

If the mall calls the cops, won't his department respond and tell the mall owners that the guy is a cop?

 

[lucky4034]

It is april 2nd now so if this is for real I would only ask you, being LEO, how did that feel.
A serious question asked in a serious manner. No knock on LEO just curious if this is the real deal. A lot of parody these days.

You meant it serious... I still get to laugh

 

[The Bubba Effect]

I don't understand the mindset or mentality of utilizing open carry in a public arena. What is the purpose ? Intimidation, bluster, or . . . . . ? If the purpose of being armed is for self defense, is a confrontation less likely because an individual is openly carrying a firearm ?

I think this demonstrates a lack sensibility on the OP's part. With the concern(s) of the general public running rampant in today's environment, I think most folks would be either surprised or shocked or both to see an individual walking through a crowded (assumption) mall with a gun while the wearer was not in uniform.

I would think someone in law enforcement would be even more attune to the public reaction. I do take exception to anyone believing their personal right trumps the general consideration for common sense and well being. It brings to mind the theory that it's wrong to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre - regardless of the right to free speech. From a law enforcement standpoint, I suggest your situatinal awarenes would be raised if, while on duty, you encountered someone who was openly carrying a firearm.

Next time use some common sense and don't flaunt your 2nd amendment right. You do a disservice to your fellow gunowners - and to your department for that matter.

Can we get a smiley with a river of feces running out of his mouth?

Like the drooling smiley, but puking poop.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

To the OP, I commend you on returning your eotech. I imagine that was pretty hard considering you had a new gadget and wanted to take it home and start using it. I know I can't wait to use my gadgets.

As to whether the OP expected different treatment because he's a LEO, I'm not going to worry about it. It's enough that we do what is right. I'm not going to criticize this guy for possibly harboring elitist thoughts when he did the right thing.

Seriously, good job. You kicked them right in the pocket book. That's where it hurts.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

If the mall calls the cops, won't his department respond and tell the mall owners that the guy is a cop?

Would they not be calling the police due to his refusal to leave when told to leave? (= trespass, not violating mall policy)

 

[Bunnykid68]

If State Law grants an officer exemption from carry laws, why does a mall policy supersede it? I am assuming state laws exempt them, I mean a cop doesn't have to have a LTCH, right? He can carry anywhere in his jurisdiction, whether on or off duty, right?

If the mall can tell an off-duty cop he can't carry, can they tell an ON-DUTY cop he can't carry?

If the mall calls the cops, won't his department respond and tell the mall owners that the guy is a cop?

I think they can ask officers to leave there unless they are there in an official capacity. It is still private property.

 

[Boonl1776]

I then said, "no need to let me slide for anything". I then opened my bag and explained to the mall manager that the 429.99$ sight and ammo was going right back to the store for a full refund and I would never be back. I then explained to the manager of Dunhams why I was returning the items and that I will NEVER be back in that mall again. I have sent a letter to Dunhams Corp and the Company that runs the mall.....

Well done, Cox7215.

 

[Hemingway]

I think they can ask officers to leave there unless they are there in an official capacity. It is still private property.

I guess this is my question. At what point does the officer have to listen to anything the mall says?

What if an on-duty cop is eating in the food court, can they ask him to leave? He's not there responding to a call, i.e. official business.

What if he's in the parking lot in his patrol car just waiting for a call, can they force him to leave?

Can they post a sign saying, "Absolutely no off-duty police officers allowed in this mall"?

A police officer does not stop being a police officer when he is off-duty. It's not like he can only arrest someone if he has his magical uniform on

I mean, it seems like if an FBI agent can carry an AR in his carry-on on an airplane while going to FL on vacation, seems like a local PD can have his handgun on when shopping at a mall in his jurisdiction?

 

[NHT3]

Read the whole thread and I have 2 thoughts.. First is to the OP and second is the old adage "with friends like these, who needs enemies"
There's a world of people out there that have a great dislike for all of us because of our fondness for firearms. Do we really need to single out any group, or person for that matter, and alienate them, be it a LEO or anyone else? Seems to me, doing that is playing right into the politicians hands.

[FONT=&quot]NRA Life member [/FONT][FONT=&quot]GSSF member[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Gunsite graduate Certified Glock armorer[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]1911 Mechanic[/FONT]

 

[MikeDVB]

I guess this is my question. At what point does the officer have to listen to anything the mall says?

At the point when they ask the officer to leave and he's not actively investigating a crime or conducting an investigation involving the mall, a mall employee, or a mall patron?

What if an on-duty cop is eating in the food court, can they ask him to leave? He's not there responding to a call, i.e. official business.

He would still need to leave, I don't see why being a cop would be any different than anybody else - they're civilians like the rest of us that simply have a duty to enforce laws.

What if he's in the parking lot in his patrol car just waiting for a call, can they force him to leave?

Sure they could if they own the land. When I worked at KFC when I was 18 (9 years ago or so) I had an officer that would sit and speed trap from my lot. I went out and asked him to leave - he tried to argue and I told him that he was on private property and if he wasn't coming inside to buy some food, he needed to find somewhere else to park. Understand I wasn't trying to stop him from doing his job - my lot only had 10 spots and was regularly full (i.e. nowhere to park) and this non-paying officer was taking a spot that one of my paying customers could have used. I still know him today, he's a great guy and an excellent officer imho.

Being a cop isn't free reign to do anything you want, anywhere you want, at anytime you want.

Can they post a sign saying, "Absolutely no off-duty police officers allowed in this mall"?

Sure they could - but good luck enforcing this. I doubt they're going to have credential checks at the entrances... They already have 'no weapons' signs - and I would happily CC if I had reason to go there.

A police officer does not stop being a police officer when he is off-duty. It's not like he can only arrest someone if he has his magical uniform on

Arrest powers do not make you above the law and the rights of a property owner. Just as if an officer were to walk onto my property - I could demand they leave the property - the mall can do the same.

The only exception that I'm aware of is with a warrant.

I mean, it seems like if an FBI agent can carry an AR in his carry-on on an airplane while going to FL on vacation, seems like a local PD can have his handgun on when shopping at a mall in his jurisdiction?

There are specific laws that give certain exemptions and in certain cases. There is no blanket 'law enforcement officers are exempt property owner rights' law.

 

[Expat]

So which is it? Have the right to ask someone to leave regardless of the reason, even racist reasons, or pick and choose which rights you have to check at the door?

Which is it? You repeat yourself for the fun of it or you have reading comprehension issues?

 

[Boonl1776]

they're civilians like the rest of us that simply have a duty to enforce laws.

Not so sure police officers have a "duty to enforce laws." Their absence of a duty to enforce laws is one of the primary reasons I own and carry firearms.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html

 

[MikeDVB]

Not so sure they have a "duty" to enforce laws. Their absence of a duty is one of the primary reasons I own and carry firearms.

No, they have a duty to enforce laws - they do not have a duty to protect you. It's an important distinction.

They are law enforcement officers and not 'save you from the bad guys officers'.

 

[Hemingway]

There are specific laws that give certain exemptions and in certain cases. There is no blanket 'law enforcement officers are exempt property owner rights' law.

I agree with most of your logical arguments. There are probably some practical issues that work most of these issues out: how fast do you think the local department would respond to a call for help from the manager of a place that doesn't want cops around? I think the department would very much respect their "private property" rights by not killing themselves to get there. And maybe waiting in the street until they had permission to come on the property while the manager gets his head kicked in by the robbers. Just kidding, I'm sure the cops are more professional than that, but I certainly wouldn't adopt that business practice

But, what exactly does the law say? Specifically, what IC allows an officer to carry all the time (on-duty/off-duty) without a LTCH? Are there limitations to it? Any restrictions? Or does state law not differentiate between off/on duty?