Asked to Leave Logansport Mall for OCing Off Duty

[Pinchaser]

But you can't call her an "illegal immigrant" anymore. Now, you have to say "undocumented Democrat...."

 

[Boonl1776]

But you can't call her an "illegal immigrant" anymore. Now, you have to say "undocumented Democrat...."

Why do you presume she is a democrat? Don't the illegal Mexicans come here to work for Republicans in big agriculture and construction?

 

[DragonGunner]

Why do you presume she is a democrat? Don't the illegal Mexicans come here to work for Republicans in big agriculture and construction?

Most farmers I know are (D) and alot of construction are Unions which are (D).....but one would be wrong to presume even with those odds....kinda like lumping all black as (D) even though 95% last election voted (D), theres still 5% that are some other Party.

 

[Excalibur]

A mall that asks an active duty cop, not a retired or former cop to get out of their mall...now that's just silly. What? They can't trust an actual cop with a gun?

 

[ScouT6a]

I think having the option to open carry is great. Do I see many circumstances where it is practical? No. I OC on my private property/in my home because I mainly carry a full size duty pistol at home. When I go out in public I normally down size the carry gun for concealment or I conceal carry a Beretta M9 (yes, it CAN be done with some forethought). I actually had an assignment in the Army that required plain clothes/concealed carry with an M9 and we had to get special permission in order to do that.
I carry several knives every day. One as a tier in my personal protection plan, one mainly for work use and a small pocket knife for "general" purpose. The personal protection knife and work knife are pocket clip models. For the most part, "out of sight, out of mind". Don't need to draw undue attention to myself by walking around with a machete slung across my back. If I go into a place of business that has a no weapons sign posted, I discretely slip the knife off the pocket clip and down into the pocket until I leave the place.
Yes, I think the original poster should have used some common sense/discretion with his carry choice in a mall. Do I think he was expecting preferential treatment because he is a LEO, absolutely. I know all LEOs are human and thus fallible, however I have personally known, worked with and observed dozens of LEOs in the last 25 years. City police, county deputies, state police and federal LEOs. I can count on one hand the number of those officers that I have/had respect for. The majority were arrogant. Many cheated on their spouses, most would drink and drive, almost all would speed to the excess in their vehicles, both duty and personal. Most were not proficient with firearms, most were very opinionated about what laws they would and wouldn't enforce, horse play on duty.
Want some examples?
A. I am driving down the interstate at the posted limit and a county deputy passes me like I am setting still. I mash the gas and catch up to him. We are now running 90 mph. In a ten mile stretch he is speeding, improper lane change, passes on the right and failure to signal. On a call/responding to an emergency? No, pulled into a restaurant for lunch with his cop buddies.

B. I am driving down a state road at the posted limit and a county sheriffs car passes me like I am in park. I mash the gas and catch up to it. We are running 85mph. It makes a left hand turn while failing to signal, rolls down the window and throws a pop bottle into the ditch. On a call/responding to an emergency? Pulled into the Chevrolet dealership for service. After further investigation, turns out it was the sheriff's wife who worked at the jail.

C. Running around 465 and a Brownsburg cop passes me like I am setting still. Mash the gas, climb on his rear bumper and follow him to I-74 where he takes off like his axx is on fire. I turn on the video camera and follow him as we reach speeds of 100+ mph. Turn the video over to the Chief of Police and tell him if he doesn't deal with it, I will send it to the news. I can go on and on and on about speeding cops. Lets change gears.

D. Cop walks into the P.D. and startles a fellow cop playing with his weapon and gets shot in the chest. Cop is showing off his weapon in the car and shoots himself in the leg after he has cleared the weapon. Two cops driving down the road and one thinks it is "funny" to pull his loaded .357 Magnum, pull the hammer back and place it against the head of his partner to see his reaction. Pointing loaded weapons at each other to see the others guys reaction to having a laser on him. Tazing friends and family for the fun of it. "Confiscating" illegal weapons on traffic stops and then selling them out of the trunk of the cruiser. No Sh*t, personally saw this one! and just plain corruption. Can go on and on and on.

E. Cop after cop after cop (that I personally know/knew) that has totaled vehicles responding to accidents, driving too fast for road conditions or driving under the influence.
One poster said that you shouldn't have to "earn" respect, you should give it everyone until such time that they lose it. At this point LEOs have to earn my respect! LEOs are highly visible public servants. They should set the example and lead by example. They don't. They have the reputation that they do because most have "earned" it. I know the old saying that "one bad apple spoils the barrel" but in this case it is a barrel full of bad apples spoiling a few good ones. (don't get me wrong, there ARE good ones out there. I am still friends with those guys)

 

[Dead Duck]

I think having the option to open carry is great. Do I see many circumstances where it is practical? No. I OC on my private property/in my home because I mainly carry a full size duty pistol at home. When I go out in public I normally down size the carry gun for concealment or I conceal carry a Beretta M9 (yes, it CAN be done with some forethought). I actually had an assignment in the Army that required plain clothes/concealed carry with an M9 and we had to get special permission in order to do that.
I carry several knives every day. One as a tier in my personal protection plan, one mainly for work use and a small pocket knife for "general" purpose. The personal protection knife and work knife are pocket clip models. For the most part, "out of sight, out of mind". Don't need to draw undue attention to myself by walking around with a machete slung across my back. If I go into a place of business that has a no weapons sign posted, I discretely slip the knife off the pocket clip and down into the pocket until I leave the place.
Yes, I think the original poster should have used some common sense/discretion with his carry choice in a mall. Do I think he was expecting preferential treatment because he is a LEO, absolutely. I know all LEOs are human and thus fallible, however I have personally known, worked with and observed dozens of LEOs in the last 25 years. City police, county deputies, state police and federal LEOs. I can count on one hand the number of those officers that I have/had respect for. The majority were arrogant. Many cheated on their spouses, most would drink and drive, almost all would speed to the excess in their vehicles, both duty and personal. Most were not proficient with firearms, most were very opinionated about what laws they would and wouldn't enforce, horse play on duty.
Want some examples?
A. I am driving down the interstate at the posted limit and a county deputy passes me like I am setting still. I mash the gas and catch up to him. We are now running 90 mph. In a ten mile stretch he is speeding, improper lane change, passes on the right and failure to signal. On a call/responding to an emergency? No, pulled into a restaurant for lunch with his cop buddies.

B. I am driving down a state road at the posted limit and a county sheriffs car passes me like I am in park. I mash the gas and catch up to it. We are running 85mph. It makes a left hand turn while failing to signal, rolls down the window and throws a pop bottle into the ditch. On a call/responding to an emergency? Pulled into the Chevrolet dealership for service. After further investigation, turns out it was the sheriff's wife who worked at the jail.

C. Running around 465 and a Brownsburg cop passes me like I am setting still. Mash the gas, climb on his rear bumper and follow him to I-74 where he takes off like his axx is on fire. I turn on the video camera and follow him as we reach speeds of 100+ mph. Turn the video over to the Chief of Police and tell him if he doesn't deal with it, I will send it to the news. I can go on and on and on about speeding cops. Lets change gears.

D. Cop walks into the P.D. and startles a fellow cop playing with his weapon and gets shot in the chest. Cop is showing off his weapon in the car and shoots himself in the leg after he has cleared the weapon. Two cops driving down the road and one thinks it is "funny" to pull his loaded .357 Magnum, pull the hammer back and place it against the head of his partner to see his reaction. Pointing loaded weapons at each other to see the others guys reaction to having a laser on him. Tazing friends and family for the fun of it. "Confiscating" illegal weapons on traffic stops and then selling them out of the trunk of the cruiser. No Sh*t, personally saw this one! and just plain corruption. Can go on and on and on.

E. Cop after cop after cop (that I personally know/knew) that has totaled vehicles responding to accidents, driving too fast for road conditions or driving under the influence.
One poster said that you shouldn't have to "earn" respect, you should give it everyone until such time that they lose it. At this point LEOs have to earn my respect! LEOs are highly visible public servants. They should set the example and lead by example. They don't. They have the reputation that they do because most have "earned" it. I know the old saying that "one bad apple spoils the barrel" but in this case it is a barrel full of bad apples spoiling a few good ones. (don't get me wrong, there ARE good ones out there. I am still friends with those guys)

Mmmmmmm.........

Nothing practical about your post, there is.
Problem with Open Carry, you have.
Common sense post, you will find.



Post in HERE.............But not in here.




WOW - So you just lumped the OP in with your list of problem LEOs.
You have just proved how people push their own personal beliefs and agendas down other individual's throats.

No different from the Chief of police instructing his department to harass all legally armed citizens.

Or most mall's policies to harass all legally armed citizens.

Or our colleges kicking out and harassing all legally armed students.



Dude, It's springtime.....lose the coat and strap on your Hogleg and wear it with pride.
You have the same Permission and Right as everyone else here in Indiana.

BTW - Yoda OCs.

And why do you chase cop cars?

 

[ruger1968]

i thought if their was no signs saying no firearms allowed you should be able to carry

 

[zippy23]

it is very frustrating to see police speeding everyday, i drive 30-40K miles a year all over indiana, i see it daily all over the state. having said that, the mall sucks, I do everything i can to avoid any mall, nothing but crazy people and young idiots hanging out doing nothing. Malls arent for me.

 

[Hammerhead]

i thought if their was no signs saying no firearms allowed you should be able to carry

If there are signs that say "No Firearms Allowed" you can still carry. Signs hold no weight of law. Nor do "policies", "rules", "wishes" or "unicorn farts" when it comes to carry.

Businesses state their desires, but that does not magically make it unpossible to carry there.

 

[ScouT6a]

The problem with my list of LEOs is that I personally have no experience with any other professions that have as many "bad apples" as LEOs. I have never dealt with any other people that enforce that law that think they are above the same laws. If I was constantly seeing school bus drivers breaking the law, I'd go to the same lengths to bring it to someone's attention.

If they don't see you carrying it shouldn't ever be an issue, right?

Didn't the OP post his experience on INGO with the hopes of getting people to push his agenda of boycotting the Logansport mall? I have never had an OC/CC issue with that mall.

As far as the college situation. I believe there has been legislation introduced to correct there issues.

I have zero problems with open carry. I just think you need to use good judgment on where you do it. I feel that with today's society, OC makes more people nervous than it comforts. If you can carry concealed, not raise suspicion, not **** people off, not cause a scene (while armed) and not tip your hand to the bad guy IF something were to go down, why not do it?

Why do I chase police cars? Why do police chase civilian cars? To catch people who are screwing up. When I follow a police car, get his bumper number and license plate on video, running in front of me and pan down to my speedometer to prove the speeds, all with a date and time stamp, it's pretty hard for a chief, sheriff or Sgt/Lt to dispute the facts and blow it off as a disgruntled citizen. Out of the dozen or so police officers that I have done this to, not one has pulled me over or written me a ticket. Why do you think that is?

 

[MikeDVB]

The problem with my list of LEOs is that I personally have no experience with any other professions that have as many "bad apples" as LEOs.

Positions of power attract bad apples. it's up to those hiring for those positions to weed out the bad apples but that's not always entirely possible.

If they don't see you carrying it shouldn't ever be an issue, right?

Even if they do, and they want to check it should be nothing more than verifying the LTCH is valid and then moving on with their day.

Didn't the OP post his experience on INGO with the hopes of getting people to push his agenda of boycotting the Logansport mall? I have never had an OC/CC issue with that mall.

Do what you wish - boycott them or not, that's your decision. Just because the OP says jump off a bridge............

I have zero problems with open carry. I just think you need to use good judgment on where you do it.

Should the same limits apply to free speech? Your rights against unwarranted search and seizure?

Anywhere it's legal, it's legal regardless of what you or Mr. Cop thinks.

I feel that with today's society, OC makes more people nervous than it comforts.

I don't give 2 's if you're nervous because I'm OC'ing. Just like I don't care if you don't like the color of my skin, the accent of my voice, the smell of my hair, or anything else.

Scared of somebody that is OC'ing? Then go somewhere else - because they have just as much a right to be there as you and you are the one scared.

I just don't understand this idea that we should all modify our perfectly legal behavior to comfort those ignorant and irrationally fearful of inanimate objects. These people would not be scared if they didn't know it's there - and that doesn't change the fact that it is indeed there.

If you can carry concealed

I do from time to time, depending on what I'm doing and where I'm going but it's for my own comfort and not to make somebody else comfortable.

not raise suspicion

What, exactly, is suspicious about carrying a firearm openly? It used to be in this country the only ones suspicious were the ones with something to hide [i.e. if you were concealing, it was probably because you were not legal.]

not **** people off

Why should I care if you get pissed off? You can go pound sand.

not cause a scene (while armed)

If I wouldn't be causing a scene unarmed [or concealed] I'm also not causing a scene while openly carrying. If openly carrying results in a scene you can rest assured that I did not cause it.

and not tip your hand to the bad guy IF something were to go down

Can you cite just one case where a bad guy 'took out the good guy because he was armed' before committing whatever other crime they had in mind? I won't hold my breath - but those who advocate CC over OC bring this up all day long with absolutely no evidence to back such claims up.

Why do I chase police cars?

How the heck would I know why you do something like putting whip cream on your turkey sandwich? [In case you're slow, that's just an example of something you could do that I would not understand, just like I would not understand you chasing police cars.]

Why do police chase civilian cars?

Because said driver or passenger is suspected to have committed a crime or infraction and said driver is not stopping, as required by law.

When I follow a police car, get his bumper number and license plate on video, running in front of me and pan down to my speedometer to prove the speeds, all with a date and time stamp, it's pretty hard for a chief, sheriff or Sgt/Lt to dispute the facts and blow it off as a disgruntled citizen.

Sounds like you need to get out more, or like you want to be in a position of authority when you aren't.

Do you do this same thing to non-police? Follow them, record their speed, report it to their boss/wife/family/whoever?

Out of the dozen or so police officers that I have done this to, not one has pulled me over or written me a ticket. Why do you think that is?

How would I know?

You might want to take your whole CC/OC debate over >>> HERE <<<. All of the arguments you've made have already been made dozens if not hundreds of times... You're not saying anything any of us haven't already heard.

 

[d012]

I wonder would they "let it slide", if it wasn't an LEO. Thank you for doing what you did.

 

[ScouT6a]

"Positions of power attract bad apples"
My point exactly. Not many people in our daily lives have more discretional power than a police officer. And many make a choice to abuse it.

"It's up to those that are doing the hiring to weed out the bad apples"
You ever hear the expression, "the fox guarding the hen house", Sir?

"Scared of somebody that is OC'ing? Then go somewhere else - because they have just as much a right to be there as you and you are the one scared"
It has been proven before and it was proven in this case that property owners/managers can and will make you leave the property if they or their customers or employees are scared. It all depends on how many places you want to "boycott" I suppose.

"Do you do this same thing to non-police? Follow them, record their speed, report it to their boss/wife/family/whoever?"
Usually a few times a year I call 911 to report a suspected impaired driver. That doesn't mean I want to be in a position of authority, just means I am a responsible citizen/driver and concerned about my safety and the safety of others. Why in the world would you make the decision to carry a handgun if you are not concerned about these sort of things?

"Should the same limits apply to free speech?"
Absolutely not. If you want to cuss like a sailor in church or your child's pre-school feel free. Want to talk smack about our president in front of the Secret Service, go right ahead. Say whatever you please to the cop that stops you, they love that. Walk in tomorrow and tell your boss off. I am sure none of these people will have any issue with this once you explain your 1st Amendment rights to them. Judgment, common sense, discretion. Ever hear any of those words?

"Your rights against unwarranted search and seizure?"
Don't really understand how this correlates to this discussion.

"All of the arguments you've made have already been made dozens if not hundreds of times... You're not saying anything any of us haven't already heard."
And yet you are still 100% in the right. huh...........

I suppose it all boils down to how much attention/recognition a person needs when it comes to OC. Some are obviously needy than others. I myself enjoy the element of surprise. Other's mileage may vary.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

Seriously, Scout. Read this thread or at least the OP in it.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...lf_defense/71996-the_open_carry_argument.html

 

[churchmouse]

I was having breakfast at one of my regular spots in speedway and a man and wife sat next to me at the counter. He was OC. regular looking fella. Waitress saw his glock and smiled. Owner never gave him a second look. Struck up a conversation about his glock. Turns out his is LEO. he showed me his, I showed him mine and we chuckled, eat breakfast and had a great conversation.

 

[ScouT6a]

LockStocksAndBarrel,
Ok, I went and read your suggested post. With an open mind. What did I get from it? Well, the main thing I got from it was that OC/CC is an individual choice. I got that a lot of the content of the article was based on the author's "feelings" He clearly stated that. I find the author's viewpoint that "whatever you do, however you do it, you are going to lose" more than a little bit disturbing. Go into a situation with that mindset and yes, you have already lost. If some thug, crazy, hoodlum, terrorist, bad guy makes the decision to attack me, my family, my friends or unarmed strangers, I have absolutely no reservations, guilt, or shame about what I had to do. Not everyone has that mindset or preparation. I understand that.
The idea that an attacker is going to see your OC handgun relies on a lot of assumptions. The angle that the attacker approaches from, the lighting, the size of the weapon you are carrying, the mindset of the attacker (1st time mugging or 20th, how far they are willing to go with the attack.) Don't know if you've noticed the growing trend in the last few years that people have less and less regard for human life. None of this even takes into consideration the mental state of the attacker.
"If I appear unarmed then I am unarmed in the eyes of the robber, I appear as easy a target as almost anyone else out on the street." I have been in several less than ideal places around the world where I was forced to go unarmed. I was never a target, regardless of the fact that I didn't have a handgun. You can still present a hard target that does not invite attack.
The author also wants to focus more on being on the defense all the time rather than on offense. This is a dangerous position to put yourself into.

"Imagine staring at the shiny blade of a knife being held by a very nervous and violent mugger, three inches from your or your wife’s throat and having to decide whether or not you have time to draw from concealment". If you seriously think that you would have time to draw from an OC in this situation, I'll send flowers to your viewing.
So, if we are going to start comparing soldiers on patrol with CC/OC civilians the author would have us believe that driving around the streets of Muncie with an M2 .50 caliber MG on a ring mount on your Toyota Corolla or walking the streets of South Bend with an M4 at the ready, would be the best defense against an attack. Can't disagree with him on this one.
Back when this article was written, sometime before January 2010 and sometime before the Aurora, Colorado shooting, Tucson, Arizona shooting, 2011 Virginia Tech shooting, University of Alabama shooting, Sikh Temple shooting and the Sandy Hook shooting, people may not have been scared about people walking around openly with guns. I believe many more are now or you wouldn't have people that panic and universities getting locked down over something that someone thought they saw.

"The purpose of this essay is not to convince you to carry a firearm openly, but to merely point out the reasoning I used to determine that it is often the best option for me." Like I said, a personal option. Comes down to how much attention/recognition you need.

 

[92ThoStro]

As far as LEOs go, I don't believe they need to earn anyone's respect either. They are just people. Just because there are bad ones out there, doesn't mean every LEO is bad. Should an LEO say you need to earn his respect, and treat you like crap, because he sees so many people during his shift, that are bad?
Like I said, those LEOs you claim to have witnessed committing crimes, have done something to lose your respect. But they shouldn't need to do anything to gain it in the first place. You should respect everybody, until they do something that says otherwise.
I don't see how a person doing something, affects how you respect someone else.

I was having breakfast at one of my regular spots in speedway and a man and wife sat next to me at the counter. He was OC. regular looking fella. Waitress saw his glock and smiled. Owner never gave him a second look. Struck up a conversation about his glock. Turns out his is LEO. he showed me his, I showed him mine and we chuckled, eat breakfast and had a great conversation.

Yep, it's good to have things like that happen. I have so far never had a person show any fear towards me when I OC. I see sometimes their eyes travel down, but that's it. I am glad that in Indiana, most people are fine with it. Aside from the OC detainment by the NPD officer, I have only had two other people talk to me about it.

One was to say he feels good when he sees normal people carrying guns.
The other asks what I was carrying, because he was betting his friend he could guess. ( He did get it right btw, and in my Serpa 3 holster, only the butt shows, so he is pretty good at guessing ) Then he asked why I carry, and I told him it's in case I ever need it. He said " That'll work ".

 

[Bunnykid68]

If there are signs that say "No Firearms Allowed" you can still carry. Signs hold no weight of law. Nor do "policies", "rules", "wishes" or "unicorn farts" when it comes to carry.

Businesses state their desires, but that does not magically make it unpossible to carry there.

Are you absolutely positive about the unicorn farts?

 

[ScouT6a]

92ThoStro,
I clearly stated in my post that not all LEOs were bad people. Even stated that some are friends. I just said the profession in general has an unusually high number of officers that have let the authority go to their head. I never said all the LEOs that I have seen committing crimes were required to earn my respect before the incidents. I said they lost my respect after the fact and as a result the ones I meet now have to earn it. Fool me once, shame on you......

 

[ATM]

...I went and read your suggested post. With an open mind. What did I get from it? Well...

I think the purpose of the suggestion was to discuss that topic in that thread, not to bring more of it back into this one...