Better Rifles

[45-70]

Marksmen issued better rifles in Afghanistan


Article from Army Times

 

[Shoots4Fun]

Interesting article. Thanks for posting it.

Our guys need every tool necessary for them to succeed there. Glad they're making the EBR with 7.62 available to them. I understand it may be trickier logistically for a group to have two sets of ammo, but overall it sounds like a smart move.

 

[snapping turtle]

I do personally like the EBR-14 concept better than the ar m14/16. I only own a mini-30 as a black gun. I also like this concept better the the SOCOM or squad rifles from springfield.

A trimmed down version would make a nice big game gun. The heat shilds and extra rails and hanging extra glass is unnecessary but I would keep the bi-pod.

 

[shooter521]

Looks like they're being issued better camo, too.

The EBR is a good solution for the requirements of that particular theater, but it's a comparatively heavy and complicated platform and does introduce additional supply chain headaches (ammo, mags, parts, support). No such thing as a free lunch.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Whatever our boys need is just fine with me.

Just a question for the curious gun nut: what's the status of the M110 project?

Still in prototype stages? How many are in service?

 

[ihateiraq]

i carried one off and on in iraq, depending on what we were doing that day. i loved it. mine had a much better scope than the one the article described. a mark 4 er/t 8.5-25. i still dream about building one of those one day.

 

[boozoo]

Man I want one bad... that's giving me a nasty drooling response.

 

[IndyGunworks]

i just installed one of these for a customer and let me tell you its a PAIN IN THE you know what.... and the SOB is heavy.... i prefer my 5.56 SDM rifle i trained w/ in school at benning... i had no problems making hits at 600 w/ 62 grain ammo out of the accurazed A4 w/ an acog..... personally i think the army should be adopting a round similar to the 6.5 grendel and that would take back the "infantry half kilo" w/out having to have multiple types of ammo w/in a squad.... the expense wouldnt be to bad since existing designs could be converted w/out much problem.

 

[ihateiraq]

i just installed one of these for a customer and let me tell you its a PAIN IN THE you know what.... and the SOB is heavy.... i prefer my 5.56 SDM rifle i trained w/ in school at benning... i had no problems making hits at 600 w/ 62 grain ammo out of the accurazed A4 w/ an acog..... personally i think the army should be adopting a round similar to the 6.5 grendel and that would take back the "infantry half kilo" w/out having to have multiple types of ammo w/in a squad.... the expense wouldnt be to bad since existing designs could be converted w/out much problem.

i could get behind that. i managed to hump it on patrol after patrol and eventually you get used to it. no sling too. but it looks cool as ****. and that appeals to me.

 

[IndyGunworks]

i could get behind that. i managed to hump it on patrol after patrol and eventually you get used to it. no sling too. but it looks cool as ****. and that appeals to me.

al queda thinks its cool as **** as well... thats why whoever carried it was a higher value target... no thanks.... give me a 16 inch ar w/ heavy barrel out until it leaves the handguard free floated and match grade of course, then drops down to a standard .750 contour. so it doesnt stand out.... put an acog on it calibrated for 6.5 grendel and ill be the same threat as the guy w/ the sage stocked m1a, but will look like any other soldier, and have the SAME capabilities in mout.... my kit wont be any heavier minus ammo and a little bit of more for the heavy barrel hidden under the FF handguards, and even a trained eye wouldnt be able to tell a differance until i started firing. and will still be able to make positive hits to 600 yards w/ ease.

 

[slow1911s]

and will still be able to make positive hits to 600 yards w/ ease.

I don't think 600 yds and with ease belong in the same sentence. Unless you're David Tubb, of course.

I'm not trying to flame, but even on a Highpower range making accurate shots at 600 is tall feat. And, that's when everything is perfect. You've measured the wind, you're in a comfortable position, you know the Wx conditions, angle to target, elevation, etc. Making that same hit after humping a 80 lb ruck in an area that is challenging for billy goats, when you're flush with adrenalin and a 120 bpm heart rate? You're better off trying to make a 50 ft putt on a carrier deck in a hurricane.

 

[IndyGunworks]

I don't think 600 yds and with ease belong in the same sentence. Unless you're David Tubb, of course.

I'm not trying to flame, but even on a Highpower range making accurate shots at 600 is tall feat. And, that's when everything is perfect. You've measured the wind, you're in a comfortable position, you know the Wx conditions, angle to target, elevation, etc. Making that same hit after humping a 80 lb ruck in an area that is challenging for billy goats, when you're flush with adrenalin and a 120 bpm heart rate? You're better off trying to make a 50 ft putt on a carrier deck in a hurricane.

HA, thats almost a funny post.... we are not talking high power competition.... we are talking TORSO hits... 20x20 inch kill zone, thats over 3 moa.... and w/ a designated marksman we are not talking snipers one shot one kill... we are talking being able to keep the enemy from taking pop shots at you from a "safe" distance.... even an untrained person could drop behind a rifle and fire off 20 shots or so and start getting hits at 600 yards if the reqirement was only 3 moa.... plus the acog would take MOST range estimation out of it as its built in.... and if you see your shooting low then just use the next line down or somewhere in between..... i was making torso hits in designated marksman school 99 percent of the time at 600.... the once i missed were only because of poor wind calling and missed by several inches.... but combat accuracy and highpower shooting should not be used in the same sentence unless you are talking about a sniper, which in this case we are not.

 

[slow1911s]

HA, thats almost a funny post.... we are not talking high power competition.... we are talking TORSO hits... 20x20 inch kill zone, thats over 3 moa.... and w/ a designated marksman we are not talking snipers one shot one kill... we are talking being able to keep the enemy from taking pop shots at you from a "safe" distance.... even an untrained person could drop behind a rifle and fire off 20 shots or so and start getting hits at 600 yards if the reqirement was only 3 moa.... plus the acog would take MOST range estimation out of it as its built in.... and if you see your shooting low then just use the next line down or somewhere in between..... i was making torso hits in designated marksman school 99 percent of the time at 600.... the once i missed were only because of poor wind calling and missed by several inches.... but combat accuracy and highpower shooting should not be used in the same sentence unless you are talking about a sniper, which in this case we are not.

Well, you almost understood me. So, let's call it even.

My statement comes from my experience of otherwise capable carbine operators who struggle to hit 6 MOA targets at 100 yds on demand and on the clock.

I didn't say, nor would I suggest, that field combat is like Highpower. What I did said is that under ideal conditions, such as Highpower, hits at 600, with a 20" carbine, are not easy.

Not even considering the wind, you're talking about over 14 minutes of drop (over 90") at 600 and nearly a full second of bullet flight time. A lot can, and does, go wrong. I'm saying it's not easy - that's all.

 

[IndyGunworks]

Well, you almost understood me. So, let's call it even.

My statement comes from my experience of otherwise capable carbine operators who struggle to hit 6 MOA targets at 100 yds on demand and on the clock.

I didn't say, nor would I suggest, that field combat is like Highpower. What I did said is that under ideal conditions, such as Highpower, hits at 600, with a 20" carbine, are not easy.

Not even considering the wind, you're talking about over 14 minutes of drop (over 90") at 600 and nearly a full second of bullet flight time. A lot can, and does, go wrong. I'm saying it's not easy - that's all.

14 minutes of drop to 600 with a 6.5 grendel??? i think you need to rethink your ballistic calculators choice.....

 

[slow1911s]

14 minutes of drop to 600 with a 6.5 grendel??? i think you need to rethink your ballistic calculators choice.....

What does a 123 gr head with a .602 bc and a 2500 fps MV do in your calculator? And, if you think I'm wrong you might as well inform Mr. Alexander, too. Even his notes state a 14 MOA drop at 600 with a 200 yd zero.

 

[TopDog]

From the article:
"The Army is doubling the number of 7.62mm weapons in the infantry squad, increasing soldiers’ long-range killing power in the wide-open expanses of Afghanistan.Since the beginning of the war, a typical nine-man infantry squad has included a single squad-designated marksman, armed with a surplus M14 rifle for engaging the enemy beyond the 300-meter range of M4s and M16s."


Unless something has changed since I retired, Marines qualify at 500 meters because the maximum effective range of a M16 is 550 meters. Does the Army consider 300 meters the maximum effective range of a M16?

 

[jeremy]

My statement comes from my experience of otherwise capable carbine operators who struggle to hit 6 MOA targets at 100 yds on demand and on the clock.

I didn't say, nor would I suggest, that field combat is like Highpower. What I did said is that under ideal conditions, such as Highpower, hits at 600, with a 20" carbine, are not easy.

Chest shots at 600...
To easy, I can even do that with a an M-16 on a fairly regular basis. I am not crowing about that either.
With an M-14, or an M-21... It seems almost childs play. Will every shot be a fatal Kill strike, no probably not. But I am not looking for that kind of shot. I am looking for the I see you leave me alone now shot too though. I am happy with any hit inside a 12" circle at that range...

 

[1032JBT]

I'm not a long range shooter, never really have been, would like too just haven't up to this point. My longest shot was 580 yards with an AR with iron sights on an 8" target. It took me a few shots to walk the rounds in, but got 2 hits back to back and called it good.

I would think that a good distance shooter with decent optics could hit a 20x20 target at 600 with relative ease. Not saying it's an easy shot, just that if they know what they are doing and have the equipment for it, it shouldn't be that difficult for them.

Maybe I'm wrong and I just got lucky............

 

[ihateiraq]

al queda thinks its cool as **** as well... thats why whoever carried it was a higher value target... no thanks.... give me a 16 inch ar w/ heavy barrel out until it leaves the handguard free floated and match grade of course, then drops down to a standard .750 contour. so it doesnt stand out.... put an acog on it calibrated for 6.5 grendel and ill be the same threat as the guy w/ the sage stocked m1a, but will look like any other soldier, and have the SAME capabilities in mout.... my kit wont be any heavier minus ammo and a little bit of more for the heavy barrel hidden under the FF handguards, and even a trained eye wouldnt be able to tell a differance until i started firing. and will still be able to make positive hits to 600 yards w/ ease.

that would be nice, but such a weapon was not available to me. besides, i think im still the number two target behind the guy w/ the manpack and the 15 ft antenna sticking off his back. by the time he gets shot, im already hidden.

 

[jeremy]

that would be nice, but such a weapon was not available to me. besides, i think im still the number two target behind the guy w/ the manpack and the 15 ft antenna sticking off his back. by the time he gets shot, im already hidden.

Nah you are farther down the list than that...
You also rate behind the guy with the Machine Gun. And the guy with the Grenade Launcher/ Rocket launcher...

So call it number 4 on the list...