BFG 358-1.8" Offering?

[Broom_jm]

Well, Skip

It looks like you've done your homework, so why are you sitting at the foot of the steps, begging to come up on the porch? Personally, the only loads I will share with anyone, are the ones already published in a manual or manufacturer's website. All the promises in the world won't keep someone from trying to sue you if they blow up their gun using YOUR recommended load. Furthermore, you are an enthusiastic amateur, not someone who is providing barrels, cases and data, professionally. That means your level of liability is notably less than Bryan's...do you agree?

Hard-cast, gas-checked bullets, at a modest velocity, would be great for small game, or just to shoot more rounds. In fact, the right bullet is also great on deer, although they don't retain velocity quite as well for those longer shot opportunities.

As far as the 358-WSSM ever becoming a commercially standardized cartridge; I wouldn't hold your breath. It is a 358 Winchester, by any other name; a round that still kicks more than most deer hunters care to tolerate and lacks the range of smaller diameter cartridges. As cool as they are, the 35 caliber WSSM/WSM 'cats are specialized cartridges that will only be pursued where regulations make them the best option available. In places where sense is more common, and standard deer cartridges can be used, these rounds have little to no appeal. Trust me...I hunt there, too.

 

[Skip]

Broom,

I went back and fixed my post. Made the proper adjustment using purple.

I have no desire to be associated with "spike" and if you remember, the tables got turned pretty good on the "big boy"from the old Looney Tunes days!






It was more of a reference to those that are barking at the"spike" in the thread.

Just an attempt at humor.............Yeah, I guess I have to claim amateur there too.

As for the hope for the .358/25 WSSM becoming a commercial cartridge, I am going to hold out hope and do everything I can to make it less proprietary at every turn. Soliciting input from lots of sources and sharing on lots of fronts.

There are still states where the "slug gun" is the only weapon available for use for deer hunting. Maybe, just maybe, with the further development of this round.............maybe!

Thanks for your input. As for the loads and sharing them, yeah, when you can get sued for selling hot coffee, I guess you do have a point there.

Maybe before I share any of my loads, I will just have to have a disclaimer paper signed or something. One thing about being a "non-professional", there is only so much they can take from you.

Have a good day!

 

[IndyGunworks]

mispost

 

[Skip]

Indy, yeah, that would be unethical, friend. Thanks for the thought though.

 

[Broom_jm]

"and dis time...we DIDN'T forget da GRAVY!!"

I have 2 proprietary 'cats (6.5JDJ and 358GNR) plus a 30 Herrett and a 7-30 Waters barrel for my Contender that might as well be a wildcat, these days. I can certainly understand why a gunsmith who develops a round, no matter how unique it is, wants to try and protect it as an intellectual asset. In many cases, this will drive sales that keep them in business, so it makes sense, from that perspective.

This is the reason so many wildcats have a lot of similar variations. The 8mm/06 is a classic example and more recently, the 6.5x284 had at least 2 widely recognized designs that were both "standardized". It is pretty important to know exactly what your rifle is chambered in before you start cranking out any handloads. Fortunately, with software like QuickLoad, and the "relatively" reasonable pressure trace testing you can have done, working with true wildcats isn't nearly as risky as it once was.

My biggest problem with the 358-1.8" is not who chambered it or what loads to use, but the simple fact that it's a 35 Whelen, in disguise. Who among us would choose the 35 Whelen for a south Texas whitetail hunt or a Colorado mule deer hunt? Not many, that's for sure. It is more recoil and less flat-shooting than many other options, so we'd go with one of those. I've about decided that for the hunting I do in Indiana, I'll stick with my 358GNR and a 35 Remington-short. When I head up to my family's land in northern Michigan, I'll have my 270 Winchester loaded up with some 140 grain Accubonds.

I'll leave the 358BFG (both versions) to guys that don't mind the heavy(ish) recoil or the teeth-rattling muzzle blast.

 

[Skip]

I'll leave the 358BFG (both versions) to guys that don't mind the heavy(ish) recoil or the teeth-rattling muzzle blast.

Let me say it for him: "There is only ONE 358BFG, all the rest are "generic"!"



All kidding aside, the muzzle blast and recoil are not that bad. Less than a .30/06 or at least it is percieved as less by me. My wife has shot mine and she is pretty recoil sensitive. She did say it was strong, but she too didn't feel that it was any worse than her T/C Venture in .30/06.

Flatter shooting, yeah, and for us here in the WHOSURE state, the .358/25 WSSM is just about as flat a shooting RIFLE as you are gonna get until the rules change again!

I am seriously thinking of just getting a 460Mag barrel, sell the 44Mag and the .358/25 WSSM ones that I have for the Encore. Could shoot the 45 Scofield, 45 Colt, 454 Casull and the 460Mag out of the same gun, not be proprietary at all and listen, a 250gr bullet @ 2700fps is gonna put some deer in the freezer like, right now!

I did shoot the 460Mag out of an Encore with a 15" barrel. You wanna talk about recoil and muzzle blast? DUDE! I think the ammo we were testing was a 225gr bullet though. From that 15" barrel, it developed a resounding 2736fps! That is an awful wide heavyish bullet going really fast! But recoil! Did I mention that already? DUDE!


Take care Broom! Been fun!

 

[Broom_jm]

Yeah, I've put a few downrange with my buddy's Ruger #1 in 460S&W. We were shooting at 287 yards and with a little tweaking, he was able to use the ranging reticle in his Burris scope to put good groups on target, at that distance. Lord knows it still had plenty of deer-dropping energy!

The thing is, I was shooting my 270 the same day, getting it ready for my annual trip to Michigan. It shoots flat enough, with a single cross-hair, to hunt with at the same range. The difference between the two was recoil. Granted, the #1 has no magazine but it also had a longer barrel, so the weight was about the same. The recoil was substantially heavier from the 460. I kinda liked it, but there is no way my wife would shoot it more than once. She also shoots a 30-'06, but I create reduced recoil loads for it, using H4895 and 125 grain Nosler BT's.

Sadly, even though her '06 is a 200 yard gun, it's not legal here. She hunts with it in Michigan. I'm thinking a 35 Remington, trimmed to 1.795", will give roughly the same range and recoil. I'll find out in a couple of months. Heck, if she likes it a lot, she could use the 35 for Indiana and Michigan.

Since you live so close to the border, do you ever hunt in Michigan? Lots of deer up there in the SLP.

 

[Skip]

Never hunted in Michigan. No desire to hunt in the lower part of the state and it is always too cold to hunt in the north!


I think your quest for the 35 Rem is a valid one. I know that my 44Mag 22" Encore barrel will punish you too. Sounds weird but, I have to have an additional recoil pad on it to keep from getting the tar knocked out of me!

Of course, I am running some maximum loads with that barrel too. A 240gr XTP @ 1800fps is quite doable. Since I have that barrel, maybe all I need to do is have it re-chambered for the 445 SuperMag and call it good.

I'll tell you one caliber you can stay away from in the single shot rifle deal, the 500S&W Mag! I had an H&R with a 22" barrel in it and talk about unbearable recoil! My word!

With their Leveroution bullets, I had to put on extra clothing to get those cases empty so I could reload them civilly!


This kind of goes back to the O'Connor/Keith thing. Big caliber going slow, or light bullet going fast. Which one do you want? Depends on which train of thought you follow.

Me, heavy bullets win the day. Case in point: History: 45/70

 

[sparkomatic]

Going along with the big and slow train of thought...I wish we had an even heavier bullet selection to play with. Say up to 300gr. As long as the Accubond is, I wouldn't think seating it would be an issue in the Encore platform providing there is enough throat. Bolt guns would be a different story I imagine.

spark

 

[Broom_jm]

Well, I grew up out West where small and fast is what you need for long-range shooting. Big and slow is great for close to medium-range shots, but when you want to reach out to 300 yards and more, why handicap yourself with a bullet that has a poor BC? Pick the right premium bullet and I'll choose a 270 every time, over a 45/70. If you bring truly large or dangerous game into the equation, I'll change my tune!

For deer, hogs, speed goats and even elk, I'll stick with the smaller, faster bullets over the punkin' chunkers.

Southern MI rarely gets cold during hunting seasons, but I love the weather up north. I would much rather hunt on a 20 degree day with 4" of snow on the ground than 50 degrees and muddy.

My T/C Contender carbine in 44 Mag is shooting those same 240gr XTP's at around 1650fps. It's a 14" barrel with extension, to make it a legal carbine. Recoil is what I would call "snappy", but not heavy. That gun doesn't weigh much at all, so what recoil the round generates comes back atchya, right NOW!

 

[sparkomatic]

If you bring truly large or dangerous game into the equation, I'll change my tune!

The deer down here in southern part of the state ARE ferocious animals! LOL

spark

 

[Skip]

(I was going to let you have the last word but decided against it later! )

I don't think there are any deer up here anymore. Of course, they will turn up right after season ends!

 

[CountryBoy19]

I know I'm bumping a week old thread but I just saw this and had to adress a few things. I'm going to avoid the argument side of things and just address this post.

Well, I grew up out West where small and fast is what you need for long-range shooting. Big and slow is great for close to medium-range shots, but when you want to reach out to 300 yards and more, why handicap yourself with a bullet that has a poor BC? Pick the right premium bullet and I'll choose a 270 every time, over a 45/70. If you bring truly large or dangerous game into the equation, I'll change my tune!

I'm not really sure I understand what you're saying here, but it seems that you're implying a lighter bullet has a better BC? For the same bullet diameter (anything else would be comparing apples to oranges) a heavier bullet sporting a similar design to a lighter weight counterpart will have a better BC. When choosing a bullet for a single caliber, putting all other aspects aside, it's a trade-off between BC and initial speed. A light bullet of similar design is going to have more speed from the start but it's going to drop much faster. OTOH, a heavy bullet starts out slow, and retains much more of it's slow speed. You really start to see the differences in long range shooting, where, for example, in .308 WIN, a 168 gr HPBT bullet struggles to make it to 1k and stay in the supersonic range. A 175 gr HPBT bullet, even though it started out slower than the 168 gr. makes it to 1k well within the supersonic range.

My T/C Contender carbine in 44 Mag is shooting those same 240gr XTP's at around 1650fps. It's a 14" barrel with extension, to make it a legal carbine. Recoil is what I would call "snappy", but not heavy. That gun doesn't weigh much at all, so what recoil the round generates comes back atchya, right NOW!

Is the extension on your barrel permanently attached?

I know the T/C guns are unique in how they are handled, but I'm pretty certain that unless the barrel extension is permanently attached you're walking around with a Short Barreled Rifle. Of course, that all goes out the window if you've properly registered your T/C as a SBR with the proper federal authorities.

 

[Broom_jm]

I know I'm bumping a week old thread but I just saw this and had to adress a few things. I'm going to avoid the argument side of things and just address this post.


I'm not really sure I understand what you're saying here, but it seems that you're implying a lighter bullet has a better BC? For the same bullet diameter (anything else would be comparing apples to oranges) a heavier bullet sporting a similar design to a lighter weight counterpart will have a better BC. When choosing a bullet for a single caliber, putting all other aspects aside, it's a trade-off between BC and initial speed. A light bullet of similar design is going to have more speed from the start but it's going to drop much faster. OTOH, a heavy bullet starts out slow, and retains much more of it's slow speed. You really start to see the differences in long range shooting, where, for example, in .308 WIN, a 168 gr HPBT bullet struggles to make it to 1k and stay in the supersonic range. A 175 gr HPBT bullet, even though it started out slower than the 168 gr. makes it to 1k well within the supersonic range.

Is the extension on your barrel permanently attached?

I know the T/C guns are unique in how they are handled, but I'm pretty certain that unless the barrel extension is permanently attached you're walking around with a Short Barreled Rifle. Of course, that all goes out the window if you've properly registered your T/C as a SBR with the proper federal authorities.

To carry your example of the 308 to another level, take a look at the .264" bullets that are competing very well at 1000 yards. What I'm talking about are hunting rifles and hunting bullets, at reasonable hunting ranges. By that, I mean within the maximum point-blank range (PBR) of the cartridge/bullet combination. Specialized target rifles at known distances are one thing but my comments were with regard to hunting.

Yes, the barrel extension is permanently affixed with a pin, by a gunsmith (David White) who has written confirmation from the BATF that his method is legal. It makes for a very cool little gun, by the way. Wanna see a picture?