BG in your house

[Pami]

You're right, Bill... that was kind of the point of my post, actually. In my limited experience, I've found that men catch on much more quickly to the fact that firearms are tools. They can accept much more quickly that they might have to hurt someone to protect themselves or those around them. It's easy to teach them the mindset because they're already half way there.

Some women are fortunate to already have that mindset as well (Annie and Annie Oakley, for example). Many of the women I know do not have that mindset, and they (including me) need the extra step to help them move into that mindset. It should be worked at to "train out" the extraneous thinking ahead and just do what is necessary.

Unfortunately, many (not all) new women shooters need that extra training to get them up to par with the men they're training with. I'm not necessarily saying different training with a different approach, just ... additional training to bridge that gap. Does that make any sense?

I have yet to meet a man who said that guns frighten him. I have yet to meet one that would be afraid to look at guns, much less actually touch one. I have met, talked to, and helped women who can't say the same. It's difficult to take a Fighting Pistol course when you're afraid to even touch the gun in front of you. So how do you "train" to become unafraid of the tool? That is why there needs to be additional considerations. And I'll reiterate -- not all women need that half step. But some do, and it shouldn't be glossed over.

 

[Bill of Rights]

IMHO, Pami, it's a logic thing, and again, no sexism intended, most women are raised from the time they're little girls (barely not-infants-anymore) to respond emotionally to things around them. There are many women who have, through one experience or another, moved beyond this to address "nurture" situations emotionally and "logic" situations with reason, pragmatism, and a coldness that other women can only exhibit when that one core value comes into play: "Protect Child".

Many more women, I think, access their logic centers than men do their "emotion" centers.

How to move to the point where gun=tool? Maybe the lesson needs to come by example, maybe by self-realization, maybe by... I don't know. The classic internet thing about the "gun-cam" (actually an animated .gif file) might exemplify it well. Maybe confronting the fear is the best solution, in the form of clearing the pistol, putting it in a holster, and putting it in the 's belt for a while. ("Toss him/her in and hope he/she floats") Maybe comparison to fire extinguishers and seat belts...
I'm more of the mind that self-realization is best, though sometimes that takes far too long to sink in, no matter which gender. There are males who are scared of guns, I'm sure. I've not met any that I know of, but I think I agree with you that there aren't any men out there who are.

OK, now THAT's sexism.

Blessings,
B

 

[4sarge]

You're right, Bill... that was kind of the point of my post, actually. In my limited experience, I've found that men catch on much more quickly to the fact that firearms are tools. They can accept much more quickly that they might have to hurt someone to protect themselves or those around them. It's easy to teach them the mindset because they're already half way there.

Some women are fortunate to already have that mindset as well (Annie and Annie Oakley, for example). Many of the women I know do not have that mindset, and they (including me) need the extra step to help them move into that mindset. It should be worked at to "train out" the extraneous thinking ahead and just do what is necessary.

Unfortunately, many (not all) new women shooters need that extra training to get them up to par with the men they're training with. I'm not necessarily saying different training with a different approach, just ... additional training to bridge that gap. Does that make any sense?

I have yet to meet a man who said that guns frighten him. I have yet to meet one that would be afraid to look at guns, much less actually touch one. I have met, talked to, and helped women who can't say the same. It's difficult to take a Fighting Pistol course when you're afraid to even touch the gun in front of you. So how do you "train" to become unafraid of the tool? That is why there's needs to be additional considerations. And I'll reiterate -- not all women need that half step. But some do, and it shouldn't be glossed over.

Pami, I once was approached by an administrator of an Indiana Police Department that had gone from 5 full time officers to almost 50 in just a few years. I could train these officers in many aspects of law enforcement but what he wanted I could not do. He wanted me to mature these officers and that only comes with life and job experiences.

I can instruct in theory, proper techniques, law and or safety but I cannot change a person into something that they are not. The armed forces and police academies place you thru basic training and attempt to break you down then mold you into what they believe a recruit should be but these people are there in an attempt to succeed in a chosen profession and are highly motivated.

As a male department administrator if I even suggested that a woman was less qualified because of her sex then I would be accused (rightfully so) of being sexist and this is not acceptable behavior in today's workplace. If that person were of another race then I would be accused of racism.

I've probably just dug myself a deeper hole but in 2008, women are given equal pay for equal work and I would not expect them to expect less. Maybe, because of the profession I've been blessed with working with strong women but I could never outwardly show preference for women vs a man or vice versa in a job assignment.

I'd suggest constant training, continuing familiarity with the firearm and look to your inner self for strength. I hope that you can accept this response and know that I was not attempting to be glib or a smart a**.


Best of Luck

 

[Bigum1969]

opcorn2:

 

[4sarge]

opcorn2:

We passed the opcorn2: stage 2 pages ago, it's now time to break out the

 

[Bigum1969]

Agreed.

 

[Quarterbore]

No reservations here, two quick shots to center mass and if they so much as look like a potential threat still the next round is in their head. Too much body-armor out there to take a chance that they are trying to catch their breath or pull another weapon.

Now, it would also depend on where this happened to some degree. Inside my home where my wife and kids are present, the hesitation before I fire will only be as long as it takes to confirm you are not someone I know and my intent will be to terminate th threat you possess to everyone.

In a self defense situation elsewhere, where I can neutralize the threat without lethal force, I may be less quick to pull the trigger as I would need to evaluate the danger. Once you are inside my home, the danger is there and odds are they will need a body bag.

 

[JetGirl]

No reservations here, two quick shots to center mass and if they so much as look like a potential threat still the next round is in their head. ...

Inside my home where my wife and kids are present,

And at this point, what is your wife doing? Is she armed? That's kind of the perspective (*I think*) Spasmo & Pami are after.

 

[4sarge]

Intruder Drill

And at this point, what is your wife doing? Is she armed? That's kind of the perspective (*I think*) Spasmo & Pami are after.

Annie, found this on the net and it has some interesting thoughts on individual response to a burglary or home invasion. There isn't really one correct answer because all incidents are fluid and you need to train or prepare for many different scenarios. Tailor your plan to your specific training and comfort level.


Intruder Drill

I posted this over on Warrior Talk and it got such a strong response that I thought I’d share it with y’all as well.

It’s called the Intruder Drill and just as with fire drills, every home should have one, it should be known to all, and it should be practiced.

Basically the scenario is this – you and your loved ones are home and someone(s) breaks in. There are, as you may well imagine, many variations on this. Perhaps the simplest to plan for is when everyone is in bed and you determine an intruder is in the home well before they reach the sleeping area. Maybe fluffy starts yapping, maybe you hear glass break, or maybe you hear muffled talking in the living room.

Notice a key word there? It’s not “maybe” it’s “hear.” Your house should be secured in such a manner and you should have things arranged in such a was so as to ensure that no one can enter your home while you are in it without you knowing about it – and that is most usually done through your ears. If you are deaf you will have to rig some sort of light system.

So, you hear (what happens to be one person) stumbling around in the kitchen. The spouse is laying next to you in bed, the kids should be in their beds. Now what?
Well, waiting until that time to make some crucial decisions is not good. You won’t be thinking clearly; you won’t have time to review options and select the best; you certainly won’t have time to practice chosen courses of action.

Of course you need to do that now.
I don’t know what your house layout is.
I don’t know what your family situation is, what your sleeping arrangements are and so on – so let’s just deal with basics and concepts.

What happens first?
Most “experts” say you should not search your home looking for an intruder. You are probably not trained for it. You probably don’t have back up and partners. This does not mean you then have to pull the covers over your head and wait.

Do you call 911 immediately? What if it is your daughter getting a glass of milk from the fridge? What if it isn’t?

A technique is to have one adult poised to dial 911 while the other “investigates”. Both should immediately arm themselves. You CAN do this from your bed, right?

Got light? Know how to use it?

The other parent may want to move to a position where they can view the kids’ rooms and ensure no bad guys get to the children or between you and them. This position should afford concealment and as much cover as possible. Check out the situation – is the child’s door still in a normal state? Can you tactically check on the kids without alerting intruders? Look, listen, smell. Don’t worry – you will have super senses at this point. You will note I did not say go skulking around your home pieing corners and the like. Not unless you have to.

Do you need to move to the kids? Do they need to move to you? Does everyone need to seek cover? We have a code word, that when shouted, means “get down and get concealed”. We have practiced this since the kids were small. It reduces the chance they will get hit by stray gunfire. We have also positioned their beds with security and fields of fire in mind.

If and when you determine that you do in fact have an interloper someone needs to be dialing 911. You should rehearse the call. Practice what you will say and how you will say it.

If the other adult can cover all routes to the sleeping rooms then that is as far as they probably need to investigate. Shouting something along the lines of “I have called the police and you need to leave now!” may be helpful. Informing them you have a gun may be helpful. Or it may not be. It’s your situation, it’s your home – the point is to think it out NOW.

Start with that basic situation.
Add in a non-compliant intruder.
Add in an innocent – maybe your teen aged son has a buddy sleeping over and it’s him at the fridge.
Add in multiple intruders.
Add in hostages.
Add in a wounded family member.
Then change the location of family members – maybe you are all watching TV when goblins kick in the back door. Maybe the family is spread throughout the house.
Use your imagination.

You can make up scenarios where you return home from shopping and it “just doesn’t feel right”. How do you react?

For each scenario - think it through, make a plan and walk through the plan. Then run through the plan. Talk about it afterward. Airsoft guns are a great training aid here. Airsoft is a wonderful training aid when used correctly and backed up with actual range time. I learned this from Gabe Suarez who I unhesitatingly recommend as an instructor.

So, take some time and start working on your response options – and while you are at it, please practice that fire drill also.

If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. – Exodus 22:2

Viking Preparedness

 

[JetGirl]

Annie, found this on the net and it has some interesting thoughts on individual response to a burglary or home invasion. There isn't really one correct answer because all incidents are fluid and you need to train or prepare for many different scenarios. Tailor your plan to your specific training and comfort level.


Intruder Drill...

Yeah, I know all about the dry run drills.
I've had one of my own quite some time back.:rolleyesedit:

 

[Annie Oakley]

My husband and I have been discussing this topic since it was originally posted. We have had a hard time in trying to come up with a way to help you get the right mind set that would allow you to take a life if necessary. Try going to National Center for Missing Adults (NCMA). Click on the Adults section on the right hand side and scroll through the pictures. For each woman you see, click on her picture and read the circumstances that are known about the case. You are going to be horrified at the number of women who vanish from their homes or go to the grocery to never be seen again.

We live in the county in a home that is not easily accessed. I had gotten really lazy about keeping doors locked during the day and even during the evening. Hubby works 2nd shift so most days I am home alone from early afternoon until around midnight. Usually a gun is within arms reach but by leaving doors unlocked I was inviting someone to just walk in. This site really got me back to keeping things secure. It also reinforced my belief that if push comes to shove I will not be the one going into the ground.

Ladies, I will continue to try to think of ways to help you move forward in your ability to know that you can and will defend yourself with deadly force as necessary, but I fear that it is something that just comes with a lot of thought and experience.

 

[Quarterbore]

And at this point, what is your wife doing? Is she armed? That's kind of the perspective (*I think*) Spasmo & Pami are after.

Sorry, she would be armed but her primary job would be to keep the kids back and away from the action the best she can. If the intruder got through me, she is a very acomplished shooter as well.

 

[abnk]

Annie, found this on the net and it has some interesting thoughts on individual response to a burglary or home invasion. There isn't really one correct answer because all incidents are fluid and you need to train or prepare for many different scenarios. Tailor your plan to your specific training and comfort level.


Intruder Drill

I posted this over on Warrior Talk and it got such a strong response that I thought I’d share it with y’all as well.

It’s called the Intruder Drill and just as with fire drills, every home should have one, it should be known to all, and it should be practiced.

Basically the scenario is this – you and your loved ones are home and someone(s) breaks in. There are, as you may well imagine, many variations on this. Perhaps the simplest to plan for is when everyone is in bed and you determine an intruder is in the home well before they reach the sleeping area. Maybe fluffy starts yapping, maybe you hear glass break, or maybe you hear muffled talking in the living room.

Notice a key word there? It’s not “maybe” it’s “hear.” Your house should be secured in such a manner and you should have things arranged in such a was so as to ensure that no one can enter your home while you are in it without you knowing about it – and that is most usually done through your ears. If you are deaf you will have to rig some sort of light system.

So, you hear (what happens to be one person) stumbling around in the kitchen. The spouse is laying next to you in bed, the kids should be in their beds. Now what?
Well, waiting until that time to make some crucial decisions is not good. You won’t be thinking clearly; you won’t have time to review options and select the best; you certainly won’t have time to practice chosen courses of action.

Of course you need to do that now.
I don’t know what your house layout is.
I don’t know what your family situation is, what your sleeping arrangements are and so on – so let’s just deal with basics and concepts.

What happens first?
Most “experts” say you should not search your home looking for an intruder. You are probably not trained for it. You probably don’t have back up and partners. This does not mean you then have to pull the covers over your head and wait.

Do you call 911 immediately? What if it is your daughter getting a glass of milk from the fridge? What if it isn’t?

A technique is to have one adult poised to dial 911 while the other “investigates”. Both should immediately arm themselves. You CAN do this from your bed, right?

Got light? Know how to use it?

The other parent may want to move to a position where they can view the kids’ rooms and ensure no bad guys get to the children or between you and them. This position should afford concealment and as much cover as possible. Check out the situation – is the child’s door still in a normal state? Can you tactically check on the kids without alerting intruders? Look, listen, smell. Don’t worry – you will have super senses at this point. You will note I did not say go skulking around your home pieing corners and the like. Not unless you have to.

Do you need to move to the kids? Do they need to move to you? Does everyone need to seek cover? We have a code word, that when shouted, means “get down and get concealed”. We have practiced this since the kids were small. It reduces the chance they will get hit by stray gunfire. We have also positioned their beds with security and fields of fire in mind.

If and when you determine that you do in fact have an interloper someone needs to be dialing 911. You should rehearse the call. Practice what you will say and how you will say it.

If the other adult can cover all routes to the sleeping rooms then that is as far as they probably need to investigate. Shouting something along the lines of “I have called the police and you need to leave now!” may be helpful. Informing them you have a gun may be helpful. Or it may not be. It’s your situation, it’s your home – the point is to think it out NOW.

Start with that basic situation.
Add in a non-compliant intruder.
Add in an innocent – maybe your teen aged son has a buddy sleeping over and it’s him at the fridge.
Add in multiple intruders.
Add in hostages.
Add in a wounded family member.
Then change the location of family members – maybe you are all watching TV when goblins kick in the back door. Maybe the family is spread throughout the house.
Use your imagination.

You can make up scenarios where you return home from shopping and it “just doesn’t feel right”. How do you react?

For each scenario - think it through, make a plan and walk through the plan. Then run through the plan. Talk about it afterward. Airsoft guns are a great training aid here. Airsoft is a wonderful training aid when used correctly and backed up with actual range time. I learned this from Gabe Suarez who I unhesitatingly recommend as an instructor.

So, take some time and start working on your response options – and while you are at it, please practice that fire drill also.

If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. – Exodus 22:2

Viking Preparedness

Thanks for sharing, but I think the issue deserves its own thread. It would be nice if mods could split it to a new thread for further discussion.

 

[Lars]

Pami, You asked how to develop the proper mindset. How to get from A to B where A is terrified of guns, and B is ready to act without hesitation.

I found this book...

Effective Defense begins with a discussion of the will to survive. Gila Hayes also spends time on the theme that "Victory is a Fight Avoided." She stresses the importance of recognizing and assessing threats and finding appropriate responses. As undramatic as it may seem, an appropriate response can be as simple as walking away. Another chapter deals with unarmed defense or self-defense with tools, such as pepper spray or the kubuton. The bulk of Effective Defense, however, deals with firearms, primarily handguns, but with strong chapters on rifles and shotguns, both with a clear eye on home defense.
Readers who are new to firearms will find much valuable information in a chapter entitled "Annie Get Your Gun." This takes the reader through the rudimentary decisions on configuration and caliber after a discussion of gun vocabulary.
A chapter on concealed carry is also full of practical advice, again from a woman's point of view. "Individual build governs holster choice," writes Hayes, as she provides a myriad of options as well as a very complete manufacturers' list at the end of the chapter.

Effective Defense continues in the practical self-defense mindset of the first edition of this popular book. In addition to current information about assault and crime prevention, the newly updated volume expands into detailed information about gun and holster selection, legally carrying a concealed handgun, home safety and home defense concerns and other issues facing today's women.​

• Developing the self-defense mindset
• Intermediate (unarmed) defenses
• Threat detection & avoidance
• Home defense concerns
• Rightful use of deadly force
• Handgun selection
• Shooting techniques for women
• Children and gun safety
• Sexual assault prevention
• Surviving and avoiding workplace violence
• Separate, in-depth chapters on rifles & shotguns
• Tactics of armed defense
• Concealed carry methods that work for women
​

​

There's a good description of who the author is on the page linked above. It would seem this book, as well as

The Gift of Fear from Gavin DeBecker might both help someone who's working towards developing a self defense, personal empowerment Mindset.

We own "The Gift of Fear" and from the bit of the book I've read it should be pretty good. Gavin DeBecker isn't a big 2A guy, but that's not what you seem to be looking for.

Sorry for the sideways Thread Jack Spasmo.... But based on the last three pages of comments, I thought this might be appropriate.
​

​

 

[Bill of Rights]

...It's difficult to take a Fighting Pistol course when you're afraid to even touch the gun in front of you. So how do you "train" to become unafraid of the tool? That is why there needs to be additional considerations. And I'll reiterate -- not all women need that half step. But some do, and it shouldn't be glossed over.

I stepped away from this thread for a bit for perspective's sake. I think it may have worked, in that looking at my last post, I think I hit the answer you're looking for, Pami, or at least AN answer.

...address "nurture" situations emotionally and "logic" situations with reason, pragmatism, and a coldness that other women can only exhibit when that one core value comes into play: "Protect Child".

I mentioned something to a co-worker once, before I was avidly interested in guns and self-defense, something about a violent reaction my wife had to something or other. Co-worker told me she couldn't imagine herself reacting that way, and I asked her, "What if ____ was threatening (her new daughter)?" And her face changed in the blink of an eye and with absolute assurance, her reply was, "I'd f***in' kill 'em!" There was a short pause and she realized what she'd said and was suddenly VERY embarrassed that she'd let something like that out to be heard by someone else. She covered her mouth in shock, as if to hide that it had actually come from her, but the fact is there, and I pointed it out to her: The killer instinct is not something we like to acknowledge, but it's present in most if not all of us.

Perhaps the answer you're seeking comes in part from that story and in part from a Clint Eastwood movie scene. I think it was The Outlaw Josey Wales, where he took the settlers into a house and told them that in the upcoming fight, "You have to get mean. I mean plum mad-dog mean...."
When training with your pistol, you determine ahead of time that THAT person will not achieve their objective while you're still breathing. As you're determined to keep breathing, they WILL fall. If at the same time, you envision (in training) yourself protecting a child in danger, I'm going to guess that that emotional upbringing will serve you well. Sure, after you have dispatched the threat, you're going to likely cry, puke, scream, and second-guess yourself, you have to be alive to do any of that.

Successful training. Successful defense. You win.

I do not have data to back this up, I should say, and it's based solely on my thoughts and impressions of 40+ trips around the sun, but I don't think anyone will contradict it. If they do and can show me where I'm mistaken, I'll happily consider their angle on it.

Blessings,
B

 

[flagtag]

I have been reading through these posts and realize that I am not like every woman. None of us are.
Maybe because of my early life, I have realized that I can depend on no one but myself. And that all life is precious.

BUT, I have developed the mindset: "Good v Evil" "Past, Present, Future"
Those who set out to harm others are "Evil". Their victims are the "Good". Who should win in this situation?! Good, of course.

Past: What are the chances that evil has done this before? How many times?
Future: Would evil do it again? How many times?
Present: Should I (good) or anyone around me (family/friends/strangers - good) risk death so that evil should live - and possibly continue the victimization of good? No!

Life is precious, but good should triumph over evil - every time!

I have never faced that type of situation before but I pray for the wisdom, courage, and strength to do what is right for good.

 

[Annie Oakley]

Flagtag, great post!!!! You just summed it all up as far as this woman is concerned. Hope it helps out those trying to get there.

 

[flagtag]

Flagtag, great post!!!! You just summed it all up as far as this woman is concerned. Hope it helps out those trying to get there.

I know, it's sad we even have to consider such a thing. But our country is SO different from the one I grew up in. I grieve for the next generations. And pray for a miracle.

 

[BersaGirl]

My mindset is this...if they're in my house, at night, uninvited, had to pick a lock, break a window...whatever..to get inside and they don't leave as soon as they realize I'm still in there...they mean me and my family harm. And I will shoot to kill. I'm not taking the chance that some punkass thug who thinks he's big stuff will do his time, then get out and decide to come back and get payback on the people who put him away. They break in...they're either running out of their own volition or they're being carried out on a stretcher.

 

[flagtag]

My mindset is this...if they're in my house, at night, uninvited, had to pick a lock, break a window...whatever..to get inside and they don't leave as soon as they realize I'm still in there...they mean me and my family harm. And I will shoot to kill. I'm not taking the chance that some punkass thug who thinks he's big stuff will do his time, then get out and decide to come back and get payback on the people who put him away. They break in...they're either running out of their own volition or they're being carried out on a stretcher.