Bill would allow DHS total Police State power over most of the United States

[Bummer]

I feel no need to prove anything. You either see or you do not. It is entirely your choice.

Currently we have an ongoing thread wherein Republicans rationalize their version of Sharia law. Our local internet lawyer is pontificating that freedom is an over rated myth for the naive. His chorus is lined up along side.

Pretty much business as usual. You either see or you do not.

My experience again is only local to Southern Indiana, but has been that they've backed the candidates (typically republican) that have been most constitutionally based, and not necessarily the most popular. That being said, I know that once the primaries are complete and the tickets are set, they have shifted support to the individual on the ballot that best represents the Constitution, and in some cases will align against someone who clearly against it.

The Big Two Parties wave the part of the Constitution that they like, while ignoring the rest. The Republicans, including the Tea Party, ignore as much of the Constitution as the Democrats do, they simply ignore different parts.

Look at the Republicans running for Primary selection. There's one man with a truly pro-Constitution record - all of it, not just parts. He doesn't stand a chance. Some wishy-washy rubber stamp Republican will get the nod. At that point the Sporting Event mentality will kick in and it'll be my team against yours, just like always. Mitt Romney, Herbert Cain, Barack Obama, who in their right mind cares? There isn't a nickel's worth of difference among them. In the end we all lose. Within this context the Tea Party is no more than window dressing on a farce.

The point of this thread seems to be power wielded by the Department of Homeland Security. That would be an agency created during a Republican administration, then wielded heavily by a Democrat administration. Focusing on the point, can you honestly say, with a straight face, that a Republican is any less likely to use it against US citizens than a Democrat? Once you've been declared a Terrorist, you're toast.

 

[Gabriel]

Shouldn't that be "Compliance is Freedom"?

 

[RockofStrength]

Shouldn't that be "Compliance is Freedom"?

Well, since they don't yet have control, no. "Compliance is freedom" only applies once the Ministry has complete power: then disrupting that power (noncompliance) would be disturbing the "Freedom" that Ministry is meant to provide.

 

[J_Wales]

"fearless leader?" Did you not read the OP? This is a Republican bill. The author and 52 co-sponsors (including our own Dan Burton) are all Republicans.

Neither of the major parties has a monopoly on statist pigs.

 

[EvilBlackGun]

Just off the top of my head, but as I recall ....

Remember that "Man with a gun behind every blade of grass" a Jap General is quoted as saying after the war, for Japan, ended? I'm gleaning these data from my NRA magazines of the past six months. American hunters are the whole world's BIGGEST ARMY !! In the state of Wisconsin alone, 610,000 hunting licenses have been issued. This accounts for a larger army than in all or Europe! Then add 750,000 Keystoners, 250,000 in West Virginia, and Michigan's 700,000. Home-grown Minute Men, with their own diesel-powered "Home-vees" ready and looking for action. "Just to fill the freezer" yeah. All of us must realize how much better we are trained than is DHS. It won't be a fair fight if that Jap General looks from on high and sees an attempt at some "invasion" tried by fools. IMHO.

 

[jblomenberg16]

I feel no need to prove anything. You either see or you do not. It is entirely your choice.

Currently we have an ongoing thread wherein Republicans rationalize their version of Sharia law. Our local internet lawyer is pontificating that freedom is an over rated myth for the naive. His chorus is lined up along side.

Pretty much business as usual. You either see or you do not.



The Big Two Parties wave the part of the Constitution that they like, while ignoring the rest. The Republicans, including the Tea Party, ignore as much of the Constitution as the Democrats do, they simply ignore different parts.

Look at the Republicans running for Primary selection. There's one man with a truly pro-Constitution record - all of it, not just parts. He doesn't stand a chance. Some wishy-washy rubber stamp Republican will get the nod. At that point the Sporting Event mentality will kick in and it'll be my team against yours, just like always. Mitt Romney, Herbert Cain, Barack Obama, who in their right mind cares? There isn't a nickel's worth of difference among them. In the end we all lose. Within this context the Tea Party is no more than window dressing on a farce.

The point of this thread seems to be power wielded by the Department of Homeland Security. That would be an agency created during a Republican administration, then wielded heavily by a Democrat administration. Focusing on the point, can you honestly say, with a straight face, that a Republican is any less likely to use it against US citizens than a Democrat? Once you've been declared a Terrorist, you're toast.

Bummer-

I hope you realize I'm not trying to say you are wrong, just that for me to make a decision on how I want to vote means I would like more data than what can be picked up here on INGO, so if you had sources I would be open to them, that's all.

You're points are all spot on...neither current party really has anything to brag on when it comes to following the constitution any better than the others. It is easy right now to be very anti-democrat as they tend to take a "big government" interpretation of the constitution, and publically oppose many of the conservative things many of us here on INGO tend to support.

But as you point out, the Repulican's have created some government programs that in turn have been just as oppressive as some of the crazy stuff the Democrats are proposing.



The DHS info is a good example of it. I think many of us would agree that setting up programs that intentionally restrict or impose on our rights are not in keeping with a very literal (notice I didn't say liberal) interpretation of the constitution.

So in this case, two people can read the same article different ways. The first being that the government is setting up "Constitution Free" zones to oppress those living there, and the other interpreting it as a way to cut all the current B.S. and red tape and allow the DHS to take care of business in dealing with people that are a real threat to our nation.

In reality it is somewhere in between. Human beings, whether we like it or not, are control freaks, and thrive on power. As much as we like to have our Utopias, cooperatives, etc. we all are wired to have a basic level of authority. Authority that we are subserviant too, and authority that we excersize on certain parts of our lives. So in any form of organized society, there is going to be some intentional attempts to gather power and control. How that power an control is used is what really matters, and what truley shapes society.

 

[Bummer]

Bummer-

I hope you realize I'm not trying to say you are wrong, just that for me to make a decision on how I want to vote means I would like more data than what can be picked up here on INGO, so if you had sources I would be open to them, that's all.

I did realize, or at least thought that to be the case. Please do not take my comments as criticism directed at you. They are certainly not meant that way.

You're points are all spot on...neither current party really has anything to brag on when it comes to following the constitution any better than the others. It is easy right now to be very anti-democrat as they tend to take a "big government" interpretation of the constitution, and publically oppose many of the conservative things many of us here on INGO tend to support.

But as you point out, the Repulican's have created some government programs that in turn have been just as oppressive as some of the crazy stuff the Democrats are proposing.



The DHS info is a good example of it. I think many of us would agree that setting up programs that intentionally restrict or impose on our rights are not in keeping with a very literal (notice I didn't say liberal) interpretation of the constitution.

I acknowledge that I am something of a Constitutional literalist. I tend my herd of Unicorns under the rainbow, and we are quite happy there. We see the Constitution as a contract. Other contracts are taken literally, why not this one?

The Constitution contains a list of things the Government may do, then states that they may not do things not specified. The Government claims that statements allowing the Government to pass laws to accomplish the things it may do can be used to allow it to do anything it wants. The limitations are ignored. At that point the Constitution becomes meaningless. Again, the Republicans are just as happy to do this as the Democrats.

So in this case, two people can read the same article different ways. The first being that the government is setting up "Constitution Free" zones to oppress those living there, and the other interpreting it as a way to cut all the current B.S. and red tape and allow the DHS to take care of business in dealing with people that are a real threat to our nation.

This is a point I find quite interesting. We irritate the world by playing global police, then wonder why they want to kick us in the shin. Seems to me, if the military was here, protecting our borders and our people, we wouldn't need the DHS. The DHS would not need to extend its power, and thereby reduce our liberty.

In reality it is somewhere in between. Human beings, whether we like it or not, are control freaks, and thrive on power. As much as we like to have our Utopias, cooperatives, etc. we all are wired to have a basic level of authority. Authority that we are subserviant too, and authority that we excersize on certain parts of our lives. So in any form of organized society, there is going to be some intentional attempts to gather power and control. How that power an control is used is what really matters, and what truley shapes society.

Once upon a time, sadly becoming long ago, I was in the Navy. I learned that those who seek power are usually the worst people to allow to wield power. The experiences of the way too many years that have come and gone since have served primarily to reinforce that belief. Yes, I believe that deep inside us all is a desire to follow. The problem lies with those who have a strong desire to lead.

I doubt that this has cleared anything up, but I wish you the best of luck in your quest for knowledge and understanding.

 

[rambone]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaztexKNf_o[/ame]

 

[Bummer]

1:39 "... A new bill of rights shall be drafted and approved by (classified)..."

That certainly sounds (classified).

 

[cobber]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaztexKNf_o

That's off the Onion website.

I hope it's clear to folks that this is a parody and not an actual CSPAN video.

Seems like a questionable thing to post here when you are trying to make a serious point.

Assuming you were trying to make a serious point to begin with?

 

[ViperJock]

The Tsar's army didn't exactly prevent that revolution. Armies are made up of citizens, not robots. I don't see an American army making war on the people (never mind that Bonus March stuff).

There are a large numbers of immigrants and others--who may be less interested in maintaining the American Dream as we see it-- in the military that might not have such a problem with this as you would assume. All they have to do is move the right people to the right assignments and send a few people home on leave and voila, an decent size "unAmerican" american military is born.

 

[badwolf.usmc]

There are a large numbers of immigrants and others--who may be less interested in maintaining the American Dream as we see it-- in the military that might not have such a problem with this as you would assume. All they have to do is move the right people to the right assignments and send a few people home on leave and voila, an decent size "unAmerican" american military is born.

Funny. So what do you base your insightful "analysis" on?

 

[rambone]

That's off the Onion website.

I hope it's clear to folks that this is a parody and not an actual CSPAN video.

Seems like a questionable thing to post here when you are trying to make a serious point.

Assuming you were trying to make a serious point to begin with?

I thought it was kinda obvious. Sometimes you just have to step back and laugh at this crazy government. Truth is stranger than the Onion.

 

[EvilBlackGun]

There is much more to conversing Πo Руccий язиk ...

... than a Google-char-map and dictionary. Here, I fixed your mis-spellings: Komitet Gosudarstvennoj Bezopastnosti. And too, "If not me ...": "Ecли meня нet, a koгo ? " You missed the negative-genetive case requirement.

Actually DHS comes out eerily close to KGB, Committee of State Security (Komitet Gosudarstennoi Besopasnosti), a highly efficient Soviet state organ. The use of the word "homeland" in DHS is disturbingly close to the Russian rodina, or Nazi Vaterland. I wonder that no one saw that when playing the name game.

Just what America needed.



Canadian Forces total what? The Michigan National Guard is probably larger in numbers and comparably or better-equipped. If I were Canadian I would worry more about US troops going north of the 49th parallel.

Let's look at an easy state to find on line ... Wisconsin. Over the last 5 years the census of hunters having state-issued licenses has hovered around 600,000,-700,000. A deer gun is an assault weapon according to some. Quite an army!! Check your own state. You are in good company !!

 

[cobber]

There are a large numbers of immigrants and others--who may be less interested in maintaining the American Dream as we see it-- in the military that might not have such a problem with this as you would assume. All they have to do is move the right people to the right assignments and send a few people home on leave and voila, an decent size "unAmerican" american military is born.

I would bet most immigrants are more into the American Dream than the home grown variety. How many OWS'ers do you suppose are immigrants? I bet they're too busy out looking for jobs to move up the ladder.

Your best source of subversives would be the OWS types themselves. I wonder what percentage of them have served the country?

 

[cobber]

I thought it was kinda obvious. Sometimes you just have to step back and laugh at this crazy government. Truth is stranger than the Onion.

If truth is stranger than fiction, than why not put up a genuine video? CSPAN posts all the real stuff.

Using phony "news" to make your point? I hope you see a problem there.

Isn't that called propaganda? We don't like being manipulated and fibbed to, right?

 

[rambone]

My apologies cobber.

 

[cobber]

My apologies cobber.

I get too agitated sometimes. Sorry to get bent out of shape. If you had posted the real thing I probably would have had a conniption fit.

A few years back some Chinese paper picked up an Onion story and broadcast it as the real McCoy. Eventually they figgered it out, but I think many readers remained convinced it was genuine.

Chinese Newspaper Publishes Bogus Story From The Onion as Real Deal - The Tech

Readers of the Beijing Evening News, the capital’s largest-circulation newspaper, learned this week that the U.S. Congress had threatened to move out of Washington unless a fancy new Capitol was built. “If we want to stay competitive, we need to upgrade,” House Minority Leader Richard A. Gephardt, D-Mo., was quoted as saying. “Look at the British Parliament. Look at the Vatican. ... Without modern facilities, they’ve been having big problems attracting top talent.”