Breaking: New Executive Actions to Reduce Gun Violence and Make Our Communities

[traderdan]

I 100% agree any erosion of rights is horrible, and I believe most gun laws on the book are unconstitutional. But in this case, all he did is regurgitate existing law. Word for word. The definition of a dealer as someone "in the business" has been law since 1968. The funny thing is [some] gun owners have been asking for a definition for that ever since. I bet you can find threads here on ingo asking that exact question. And we still don't have a definition, other that we know they are hiring more govt employees to hunt down unlicensed people "in the business." I don't agree with the law, but there's nothing new here. Have people been "pushing the limit" under the law? probably. Those people should be the ones thinking this will affect them. If tomorrow I want to sell a gun privately, I will just as I always have. I've sold 5 in 15 yrs that I recall and I'm certainly not in the business; that part of the EA doesn't affect me. Fed Prosecutors have just as much opportunity to abuse this EA as they have had under the GCA.

The response to this should be pointing and laughing, not gnashing of teeth. Expose his weakness and how this EA is only bolstering enforcement of laws already on the books (as many gun-owners and NRA clamor for... be careful what you ask for, you just might get it) from an administration with a dismal record of prosecuting violations of these existing laws. GOP response could be tweaks in the code to make it ever simpler to get an FFL or create a "hobby FFL" for folks w/ other day jobs.

The other part of this, the NFA trust part, was going to happen anyway.

If we want this encroachment of freedom gone, we should look for candidates w/ the balls to say GCA should be repealed, as well as the NFA. The slippery slope was created in '34 and steepened in '68.

my 2c.

-rvb

So then you do not believe that the prosecution of individuals who trade often will increase? I find that to be no laughing matter...

 

[rvb]

So then you do not believe that the prosecution of individuals who trade often will increase? I find that to be no laughing matter...

maybe, maybe not. Time will tell that. This is a lot of posturing from this administration. Throwing dollars around and hiring minions doesn't necessarily equal indictments. Will congress continue to fund the personnel and activities he's called for? maybe all it does is put fear into people who really should be operating with an FFL to either get the license or slow their activities.

Don't mistake my comments for support of the President's actions. Far, far from it. But he didn't make this law with this EA, legislators in 1968 did.

Should the NRA be applauding him for "enforcing the laws already on the books?" I've always hated that cliché for this very reason.

NFA and GCA need repealed.

-rvb

 

[JTScribe]

There is one individual here who does this. I have personal experience with him.

Tell him his boss is an a-hole.

 

[AmmoManAaron]

Ever been to a hacker convention? Spotting and "outing" the Federales is part of the proceedings.

If you have direct knowledge that someone is here trying to entrap people - time to out them...

^^^THIS^^^

It may not stop them, but it will put them back at square one.

 

[rvb]

How to be a successful anti-gun President:

1) regurgitate existing law
2) take credit for a 2+ yr effort by ATF to change rules on NFA trusts*
3) grow the Fed gov't by several hundred employees
4) Cry on TV

did I miss anything?

* actually not as bad as we expected since they removed the CLEO certification for both trusts and individuals.

-rvb

Fixed, I did miss one step....
-rvb

 

[KG1]

Fixed, I did miss one step....
-rvb

You did miss that. It's important to seal the deal with a good cry.

 

[singlesix]

I don't like Obama and didn't vote for him, but on his crying, it's the media making the big deal, even during a public event things can get to you. I almost broke down during my Change of Command Ceremony, sometimes things just hit you.

 

[bwframe]

...

NFA and GCA need repealed.

-rvb

So let's get this done.

 

[Tombs]

That's essentially what is going on here. It's not good, but it's not the end of the world either.

As to the "in the business" froo frah, this doesn't change the definition of what it means, it just enhances enforcement. We all know people or have seen people who are conducting business under the guise of being a "collector" or just a guy with a lot of guns. If you are buying guns regularly and hours or days later they appear for sale, and this is repeated time and time again...you're treading on thin ice now and if there are more agents looking for that, well...

No, you aren't treading on thin ice. Read the law.

Is it something that could be considered a profession or something approaching a major source of income? If it isn't, you're supposed to be a-okay.

Same deal with selling cars. Can trade all you like, but if you're starting to basically become a dealership, you need a license. It's all about uncle sam wanting some of your blood after you spill your blood sweat and tears for your lively hood.

Ever been to a hacker convention? Spotting and "outing" the Federales is part of the proceedings.

If you have direct knowledge that someone is here trying to entrap people - time to out them...

On a forum like here that has to be accomplished without that individual's knowledge. This is a message board, not real life. They can just make up a new identity and pretend to be who ever the second they're outed.

Better off to just inform people of the warning signs, so they can spot these treasonous individuals with their own eyes.

 

[Rocket]

So the new Internet ads will read. "For sale one black cap. One size might fit all, $400.00 comes with free gun." I am sure someone will try it.

 

[Rocket]

Oh and since the clause used to deny social security recipients is that of not being able to manage their finances, then the .gov shouldn't be able to purchase either, we know they can't manage their finances.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

On a forum like here that has to be accomplished without that individual's knowledge. This is a message board, not real life. They can just make up a new identity and pretend to be who ever the second they're outed.

Better off to just inform people of the warning signs, so they can spot these treasonous individuals with their own eyes.

I see your point. But I say to heck with them. If one of us with a long standing reputation here outs a Federale, then they get to change their name / assume a different identity etc.
We can all look back at their track record and figure out how to spot them. That's easy enough.

Their boss just made them the enemy. Frankly - they SHOULD hang their head in shame. They probably started in law enforcement to do good. They swore an oath to uphold the Constitution that their boss is now using THEM to **** on. They are now lower than camel stuff at the bottom of a dry well. They need to be in a different line of work if they have any sense of decency or honor.

There's a lot of us that are hobbyists and WERE perfectly law abiding and happy. If someone is now openly trying to entrap the law abiding - they SHOULD be persona non grata here.

I have a better idea. Before I do ANY more business with folks on this board (the ones I don't know personally already) - they are going to have to certify that they are not employed by the BATFE or involved in Firearms enforcement. I don't really want their filthy money or items.


Maybe by letting them feel the pain and shame that they deserve, and being straight up about it, the difference will become more clear?

I don't know - just throwing this out there... What do you think?

 

[bwframe]

I see your point. But I say to heck with them. If one of us with a long standing reputation here outs a Federale, then they get to change their name / assume a different identity etc.
We can all look back at their track record and figure out how to spot them. That's easy enough.

Their boss just made them the enemy. Frankly - they SHOULD hang their head in shame. They probably started in law enforcement to do good. They swore an oath to uphold the Constitution that their boss is now using THEM to **** on. They are now lower than camel stuff at the bottom of a dry well. They need to be in a different line of work if they have any sense of decency or honor.

There's a lot of us that are hobbyists and WERE perfectly law abiding and happy. If someone is now openly trying to entrap the law abiding - they SHOULD be persona non grata here.

I have a better idea. Before I do ANY more business with folks on this board (the ones I don't know personally already) - they are going to have to certify that they are not employed by the BATFE or involved in Firearms enforcement. I don't really want their filthy money or items.


Maybe by letting them feel the pain and shame that they deserve, and being straight up about it, the difference will become more clear?

I don't know - just throwing this out there... What do you think?

A lot of classifieds users already vet the INGOers that they are dealing with by back checking their postings.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

A lot of classifieds users already vet the INGOers that they are dealing with by back checking their postings.

Absolutely. What I'm thinking about is a sig-line that says effectively "If you work for the BATFE or any other firearms enforcement, I consider you to now be an enemy of the Constitution and not worthy of my time, friendship, or frankly even much oxygen - so please don't even think of doing business with me". Many people ask for an LTCH and a drivers license. I'm debating asking for anyone I don't already know to certify that they are NOT one of the above boneheads as well.

I'm not trying to be a hard case here. Hopefully it will get people thinking a bit. It's time for us to stand up and be counted - which side of the line we are on. There are many great LEOs and former LEO's on this board. I've met and bought and sold with a number of them. They are GREAT people. After the imPOTUS's speech today, however - it is apparent that you cannot work for the BATFE in the manner that Liberty Sanders described above, and NOT be an enemy of the Constitution. Again - BATFE's and others in Firearms Enforcement is SPECIFICALLY who I mean. NOT all LEO's. Just Obama's stool pigeons. The line is simply getting brighter - and the distinction clearer between folks that are solid citizens, and the tools that are "just doing their job".

 

[Bill of Rights]

How would it help to have your buyer "certify" anything? We have a longstanding policy in place that allows LEOs to lie to citizens, esp. if they are investigating them.

Absolutely. What I'm thinking about is a sig-line that says effectively "If you work for the BATFE or any other firearms enforcement, I consider you to now be an enemy of the Constitution and not worth of my time, friendship, or frankly even much oxygen - so please don't even think of doing business with me". Many people ask for an LTCH and a drivers license. I'm debating asking for anyone I don't already know to certify that they are NOT one of the above boneheads as well.

I'm not trying to be a hard case here. Hopefully it will get people thinking a bit. It's time for us to stand up and be counted - which side of the line we are on. There are many great LEOs and former LEO's on this board. I've met and bought and sold with a number of them. After the imPOTUS's speech today, however - it is apparent that you cannot work for the BATFE in the manner that Liberty Sanders described above, and NOT be an enemy of the Constitution. The line is simply getting brighter - and the distinction clearer.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

BoR -
That is a completely fair point. Unfortunate, but fair. I still think it's good to let folks know where they stand. Perhaps a few of them have a conscience and will change to an honorable line of work.

Honestly - days like today get my goat when I consider the stupidity of things. Perhaps I need to crack a soda and consider things more carefully.

Thanks for being your usual rational self, sir.

 

[bwframe]

How would it help to have your buyer "certify" anything? We have a longstanding policy in place that allows LEOs to lie to citizens, esp. if they are investigating them.

All that stuff I see on TV isn't true? I thought when hookers asked if their johns were LEO that legally LEO had to tell the truth?

 

[IndyDave1776]

How would it help to have your buyer "certify" anything? We have a longstanding policy in place that allows LEOs to lie to citizens, esp. if they are investigating them.

Doesn't it just make you feel so much safer knowing that we could be on the receiving end of witch hunts designed to manufacture criminals where they didn't otherwise exist?

 

[BogWalker]

I'm just wondering how you can prove you aren't an ATF agent. Difficult to prove a negative, isn't it?

 

[IndyDave1776]

I'm just wondering how you can prove you aren't an ATF agent. Difficult to prove a negative, isn't it?

This is the cornerstone of a police state. No one can trust anyone. Fear of everyone is the result. The absence of any community unity is the result. The inability to organize any effective resistance, political or otherwise is the result (don't forget Obama's initiative to snitch out people who circulated unflattering e-mails about him).