British shocked at NHS hospital death rates. Among world's worst, inferior to US

[cardio1]

Google (well, Startpage actually) is still your friend. Just one of many, incidentally from the same sources used to refute the point. See here: Keogh review into 14 NHS hospitals did not find disaster on scale of Mid Staffs | Society | theguardian.com
Presented are some very credible reasons, both to be vigilant and to be skeptical. We are too quick to hop on the train to blame a system rather than ensuring that the data is apples to apples, and that it's not being misinterpreted (and not necessarily with any agenda, statistics once again are tricky and malleable.) Our system is broken, their's may be damaged, both are fixable and neither alone are the answer.

Also, it isn't raw data. It has been reduced and analyzed and had recommendations made based on its veracity. The raw data needs to be looked at through other filters, it is amazingly easy to unintentionally skew data in any of the steps and bears further scrutiny.

Just like our "global warming" debates. the initial knee jerk to the statistical models didn't grab all of us up. When we questioned it aloud we were shouted down. Just now are other scientists looking at arguments that we presented a decade ago that influence the interpretation of the data, in ways that are yielding results that do not support the forgone theoretical conclusion of man-made climate change.

I don't believe the OP was "on the train to blame a system". The OP was pointing out the current state of health care in England which has had 60 years to get single payor socialized medicine "right". We can look down the road and see where we in the USA will be.
The source(s) don't matter. The truth is the NHS has a real problem with excess mortality based on the Keogh review which was ordered and performed at the behest of Parliament (like our OIG).
In addition to mortality, imagine the thousands of patients waiting in an ambulance in the parkiing lot of the ER for hours and hours because the ER won't let the ambulance unload! Now that would be something in your local ER!
2008 Scandal of patients left for hours outside A&E | Society | The Observer
2013 Patients facing eight-hour waits in ambulances outside A&E departments - Telegraph

Lots of improvement in 5 years, say whot?

 

[AtTheMurph]

Nationalized health care is about rationing care and controlling the population, nothing more.

Happy, healthy, wealthy people have no need for government control of anything. Government controls best when people need, want and have little. Then the promises of free stuff work best.

 

[mdmayo]

... So when independent reviewers say their system is broken, you don't believe it, but when the guy who is responsible for (and would get the blame) says everything is OK, you swallow it hook, line and sinker? Wow, you really convinced me...

As is policy, You sir were convinced of your belief before you read past the headline.

I'm simply asking questions, and finding fewer answers than I'd like. The answers I have found indicate:

1. This is not raw data,
2. is not "apples to apples" data,
3. and has undergone no data validation that I can find.

I did not say the NHS was perfect. In fact, I stated that "Ours is broken, Theirs may be damaged." The same statistics as presented also show the NHS is getting better, the trend is markedly positive.

Science is about asking questions, many questions, formed differently and repeatedly tested, measured and recorded, before conclusions may be of any certainty. This one study is not a be-all end-all conclusion. A hypothesis must be rigorously validated and supported.

Rhetoric wont change that the refusal to read all of the article(s) content linked by myself and others (not just the parts that support your beliefs), apparent lack of any additional reading(s), and most importantly the absence of understanding of the nature of statistical analysis, sampling, or data collection, preclude any further possibility for useful discussion.

Let me slip into my Super Reagan costume. Perhaps then you may be swayed just enough to try some objectivity. Have fun in that teapot, no hooks lines or sinkers in there at all, and crowded with objectivity...

 

[hoosierdoc]

Death rate 'much higher' in English than US hospitals - Health News - NHS Choices

Seems to be from the NHS. And they seem to agree they are much worse than they should be, and they don't know why.

 

[cobber]

I once had a cracked molar fixed in Merrie Olde England under NHS. Admittedly this was in the 1980s, so it could be better or worse now.

No anesthesia, and there was a substantial amount of drilling, low speed, to prep the filling.

It was cheap though.

 

[9mmfan]

As is policy, You sir were convinced of your belief before you read past the headline.

I'm simply asking questions, and finding fewer answers than I'd like. The answers I have found indicate:

1. This is not raw data,
2. is not "apples to apples" data,
3. and has undergone no data validation that I can find.

I did not say the NHS was perfect. In fact, I stated that "Ours is broken, Theirs may be damaged." The same statistics as presented also show the NHS is getting better, the trend is markedly positive.

Science is about asking questions, many questions, formed differently and repeatedly tested, measured and recorded, before conclusions may be of any certainty. This one study is not a be-all end-all conclusion. A hypothesis must be rigorously validated and supported.

Rhetoric wont change that the refusal to read all of the article(s) content linked by myself and others (not just the parts that support your beliefs), apparent lack of any additional reading(s), and most importantly the absence of understanding of the nature of statistical analysis, sampling, or data collection, preclude any further possibility for useful discussion.

Let me slip into my Super Reagan costume. Perhaps then you may be swayed just enough to try some objectivity. Have fun in that teapot, no hooks lines or sinkers in there at all, and crowded with objectivity...

Man, like one of my previous posts states, I know a British doctor very well who when through what amounts to residency in a London hospital. He told me horror stories that I won't repeat here, but suffice it to say if anything he said actually happened in this country, there would be a huge outcry.
He moved to this country for several reason, most having to do with making money and less taxes. His brother, a cardiothoracic surgeon moved here for the same reason.
My doctor friend has actually flew family members over here to get treated for things they would have been put on a waiting list to get treated in England.

 

[rugertoter]

Does not surprise me one bit. Oh, and don't forget, this great system is coming our way...very soon.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

As is policy, You sir were convinced of your belief before you read past the headline.

I'm simply asking questions, and finding fewer answers than I'd like. The answers I have found indicate:

1. This is not raw data,
2. is not "apples to apples" data,
3. and has undergone no data validation that I can find.

I did not say the NHS was perfect. In fact, I stated that "Ours is broken, Theirs may be damaged." The same statistics as presented also show the NHS is getting better, the trend is markedly positive.

Science is about asking questions, many questions, formed differently and repeatedly tested, measured and recorded, before conclusions may be of any certainty. This one study is not a be-all end-all conclusion. A hypothesis must be rigorously validated and supported.

Rhetoric wont change that the refusal to read all of the article(s) content linked by myself and others (not just the parts that support your beliefs), apparent lack of any additional reading(s), and most importantly the absence of understanding of the nature of statistical analysis, sampling, or data collection, preclude any further possibility for useful discussion.

Let me slip into my Super Reagan costume. Perhaps then you may be swayed just enough to try some objectivity. Have fun in that teapot, no hooks lines or sinkers in there at all, and crowded with objectivity...

Since I have personal friends over in England who - from experience - tell me their medical care is crap, I'm inclined to believe them, especially since anyone with half a brain can see that "nationalized" health care is just another form of rationing, and it's easy to look back and see how well screwing with the supply of ANY commodity has worked over the long run.

 

[mdmayo]

Taking others word for it is kind of the point. Question things. If you wish to rely on empirical observations from individuals experiences differ. Mine appendectomy was fine. Others I know were also fine, from common cold to stage 2 breast cancer. My senior surgical resident significant other, who spent a year in England within the system said it was a tossup. That neither system is perfect, but that she sees the benefits in the NHS system, just not well exercised (that was 10 years ago).

The point, all along, was that the data isn't conclusive. I emphasise questioning authority, whether media, gov't, or a loud majority on INGO.

 

[CarmelHP]

As is policy, You sir were convinced of your belief before you read past the headline.


Let me slip into my Super Reagan costume. Perhaps then you may be swayed just enough to try some objectivity. Have fun in that teapot, no hooks lines or sinkers in there at all, and crowded with objectivity...

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[BIGKAT9]

It's quite simple to figure out why the UK hospitals have a higher death rate ,in the US if you're sick an don't have insurance you don't go to the hospital

 

[CarmelHP]

Taking others word for it is kind of the point. Question things. If you wish to rely on empirical observations from individuals experiences differ. Mine appendectomy was fine. Others I know were also fine, from common cold to stage 2 breast cancer. My senior surgical resident significant other, who spent a year in England within the system said it was a tossup. That neither system is perfect, but that she sees the benefits in the NHS system, just not well exercised (that was 10 years ago).

The point, all along, was that the data isn't conclusive. I emphasise questioning authority, whether media, gov't, or a loud majority on INGO.

Well, if we have a single anecdotal data point, that certainly discredits any systematic study, doesn't it? Go ahead, dig your hole of foolishness a little deeper.

 

[mdmayo]

Pot, meet kettle.

When all else fails...begin busting out tired, inapplicable idioms. I'll take the breakdown as your begrudging tacit agreement. You see, that little part above, where I'm still questioning the results keeps me from being a "pot", or a "kettle."

 

[netsecurity]

It's quite simple to figure out why the UK hospitals have a higher death rate ,in the US if you're sick an don't have insurance you don't go to the hospital

That is incorrect. Numerous hospitals, like St. Vincent, treat the poor for free. They are required to treat poor in order to remain a non-profit entity. Plus, if someone is dying or having a baby, they get immediate treatment regardless of their payment status--this is how the freeloading illegal immigrants get healthcare, and the reason our system is broken. You make it sound like America is so bad that people just die in the streets, and that isn't our problem. Our problem is all those people who don't have insurance that cause costs to skyrocket for the rest of us. So we are already paying for the poor to have healthcare here, but in a roundabout way.

 

[mdmayo]

If I dig a hole of foolishness, I'm liable to uncover many of your cronies. Thank you for misunderstanding both empirical and anecdotal evidence. Lean to read objectively.

 

[CarmelHP]

If I dig a hole of foolishness, I'm liable to uncover many of your cronies. Thank you for misunderstanding both empirical and anecdotal evidence. Lean to read objectively.

You come here and dismiss the study without a shred of evidence, and when challenged, immediately shift to ad hominem attacks, and have the sheer audacity to accuse everyone else of failing to understand empiricism. You are quite a piece of work. BTW, there should be some type of Godwin's Law for the loons who throw out Reagan's name every time they're losing an argument on the merits.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

It's quite simple to figure out why the UK hospitals have a higher death rate ,in the US if you're sick an don't have insurance you don't go to the hospital

One of my sisters-in-law works as an occupational therapist: 9 of 10 of her clients have no medical insurance. Hard for hospitals to keep going when they don't get paid for their services. And you've obviously never been in the Wishard E.R. at 0200 on a Sunday morning if you think when folks who don't have insurance are sick they stay home.

 

[CarmelHP]

One of my sisters-in-law works as an occupational therapist: 9 of 10 of her clients have no medical insurance. Hard for hospitals to keep going when they don't get paid for their services. And you've obviously never been in the Wishard E.R. at 0200 on a Sunday morning if you think when folks who don't have insurance are sick they stay home.

Correct, there is no debate on who gets treated, all get treated, the debate has been on who gets to pay for the treatment.